new OOTP versions: added flash, continuing flaws

[obaslg]

I would have preferred if Markus had fixed the many outstanding flaws in the game (the depth chart is my pet peeve, but many others have their own) before changing the engine, and certainly before making more cosmetic changes.

And I've said before, I would have found it helpful if he had explained the way certain things (depth chart, pitching staff slots) work, so I didn't have to run hours of tests to figure it out.

You got my money for v.6, but the frustation has been slowly building, and eventually it will drive me away. I don't think I'm alone.

[gordyhulten]

I'm with you. I've been asking for double-plays and men left on base on boxscores since v4. I'll ask again - can we please get box scores that display all the stats of standard boxscores, please?

[Lamorak]

I understand your point regarding some flaws that have yet to be addressed but I'm sure Markus had very sound programming reasons for opting for a complete redesign over another makeover. The original engine from which the recent versions were developed was getting more than a little dated. And continuing to add more and more additions to the older isn't alwasy the best way to improve. It was likely only going to compound the challenge of perfecting the game.

In this case, I feel it was decision to take two steps forward for one step back. The new OOTP 6 engine is a whole new foundation that the came can now develop from. Personally, I think it showed tremendous foresight from Markus to plan for the future of the game beyond just this next addition. He's definitely building for the future.

[D'artagnan]

Originally posted by Lamorak
I understand your point regarding some flaws that have yet to be addressed but I'm sure Markus had very sound programming reasons for opting for a complete redesign over another makeover. The original engine from which the recent versions were developed was getting more than a little dated. And continuing to add more and more additions to the older isn't alwasy the best way to improve. It was likely only going to compound the challenge of perfecting the game.

In this case, I feel it was decision to take two steps forward for one step back. The new OOTP 6 engine is a whole new foundation that the came can now develop from. Personally, I think it showed tremendous foresight from Markus to plan for the future of the game beyond just this next addition. He's definitely building for the future.

I totally agree with you here. From here on out, at least for a while, Markus should be able to concentrate alot on the little things that we all would like to see. Who knows, Markus still may add something in the way of a patch to confront some of these issues. Look at it this way, where else are you gonna go to get such an in depth baseball sim?

[Skipaway]

Originally posted by obaslg
I would have preferred if Markus had fixed the many outstanding flaws in the game (the depth chart is my pet peeve, but many others have their own) before changing the engine, and certainly before making more cosmetic changes.

It's flaws that you considered outstandling, not outstanding flaws.

[M's rule]

I think obaslg is referring to flaws that still exist, not implying that they are of particularly high quality. And I agree with him: The depth chart logic (so to speak) has been a pain for me for a long time.

[GoldenGlove]

There is no easy way to code the depth chart logic. There is no right or wrong way to do it. It is a judgement call. With that said...

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...threadid=61854

[obaslg]

And continuing to add more and more additions to the older isn't alwasy the best way to improve. It was likely only going to compound the challenge of perfecting the game.

I'm not talking about new additions; I'm talking about making existing "features" work. A very easy (though minor) example is the pinch hitter slot on the depth chart, which has no effect at all. The overall depth chart system is the worst, because it worked until he broke it in v.5. These parts of the game are obviously completely independent of the main engine, as evidenced by the fact that they didn't change in v.6.

If the features are fixed, Markus could at least tell us how they’re supposed to work, so I don’t have to do hours of tests.

It's flaws that you considered outstandling, not outstanding flaws.

Good point. I guess from now on I'll make it clear that I’m not a godlike being possessed of knowledge of objective reality, whose statements of opinion are gospel and law, so there won't be any confusion. Thanks for clearing that up.

But lest you think I’m the only one who cares:
http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ighlight=depth
http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ighlight=depth
From sporr (beta tester, I believe): “Or even a description of exactly how the depth system works would be nice. This is something that I have planned for the next OOTP manual that I'm helping work on with some other beta members.”

When I e-mailed my proposed system to Markus (in the link above), he said it was great, but would have to wait for the next version (OOTP6).

There is no right or wrong way to do it. It is a judgement call.

But you can ensure that the way that you've chosen works the way you intended. I was perfectly happy with the old (v.4) system, because it worked as advertised. The new one doesn't. I don't really care which it is, as long as it works. When I gave Markus the proposal he requested, I did it on the assumption that he was sticking with the new system, and I think I found a way to do it - http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ighlight=depth - but it wasn't implemented.

[Skipaway]

Originally posted by obaslg

If the features are fixed, Markus could at least tell us how they’re supposed to work, so I don’t have to do hours of tests.

I think that's a good idea and easiest way out. I don't know why Markus or someone else has not done that yet. Perhaps Markus doesn't know how it works either?

[obaslg]

I think that's a good idea and easiest way out. I don't know why Markus or someone else has not done that yet. Perhaps Markus doesn't know how it works either?

For some things in the engine, etc., I understand that he wouldn't want to ruin the mystery, and it would be proprietary anyway. But these are features that are useless unless you know how they work.

[crazyhorsejohnny]

cry cry cry... not happy? nobody is forcing you to play the game. sure the game is not perfect but which game is. i love playing this game and i think it has improved since version 1. i've tried other similar games and ootp is still topps.

[Raderick]

Originally posted by crazyhorsejohnny
cry cry cry... not happy? nobody is forcing you to play the game. sure the game is not perfect but which game is. i love playing this game and i think it has improved since version 1. i've tried other similar games and ootp is still topps.

[Crapshoot]

Originally posted by obaslg
I would have preferred if Markus had fixed the many outstanding flaws in the game (the depth chart is my pet peeve, but many others have their own) before changing the engine, and certainly before making more cosmetic changes.

And I've said before, I would have found it helpful if he had explained the way certain things (depth chart, pitching staff slots) work, so I didn't have to run hours of tests to figure it out.

You got my money for v.6, but the frustation has been slowly building, and eventually it will drive me away. I don't think I'm alone.

Firstly, I'd prefer he fix the underlying engine as opposed to the depth chart- I don't see how we can question the desire to fix the baseball part of the baseball sim. Secondly, while I agree with your complaints to some extent, I think starting 4-5 threads saying basically the same thing is not the best way to go about fixing it- have you tried PM'ing beta testers etc and asking them to mention it and so forth ?

[Crapshoot]

Originally posted by crazyhorsejohnny
cry cry cry... not happy? nobody is forcing you to play the game. sure the game is not perfect but which game is. i love playing this game and i think it has improved since version 1. i've tried other similar games and ootp is still topps.

;'

And this isn't helping either. He's pointing out a percieved flaw. Sure he's gone a little overboard with the multiple threads, but as a customer he has every right to complain in a reasoned manner.

[Lamorak]

I second Aadik. I think that we (At least us North Americans) live in an era of being ignored. And as my momma always says "The squeaky wheel gets the grease."

So, it's not suprising that people occassionally find the need to repeat the same point over and over, ad naseaum before they think they're being heard.

But it isn't like that here. From what I've seen, Markus and the OOTP insiders here on the board aren't like that. They really do WANT to hear constructive criticism and they really DO listen.

I think sometimes it's easy to think that just because Markus and the guys don't respond to every post, they haven't heard us. But personally- I think his silence only means he's busy listening and thinking, instead of talking.

But I really find this "Like it or lump it!" mentality very McCarthyistic. When I read someone saying "if you don't like it go away.", I think of the bad old days of the Cold War where every desent was attacked with: "If you don't like it here, why don't you go back to Russia!"

[obaslg]

I'm not sure which threads you mean. I did some when I found the problems in v.5. I started a new thread when I found new, different problems. I understand that some may have lumped them all as "depth chart problems," but it was clear from Markus' response to the first thread that he had only understood a very specific problem, not the ones I found later.

If you're talking about my very recent threads, I separate them with good intentions. Far too often, people post threads called "AI problem" or something. I think it's more useful to the community (searching, especially) and to the team to have distinct issues separated out. I had what I considered to be four different issues to discuss: 1) the pitch count for relievers; 2) the pinch hitter slot; 3) the basic depth chart engine (and you'll notice I list more than one problem with the depth chart there); 4) Markus' decision to focus on changing the game rather than fising problems.

I posted the depth chart thread to inform everyone (including Markus) of the problems; I posted this one to criticize Markus' priorities and to see if others had the same opinion.

If I had put those all in one thread, it could have created a confusion of posts responding to different issues. Instead, you can easily identify the topic of each of the threads, ignore those you don't care about, and look in those you do.

But personally- I think his silence only means he's busy listening and thinking, instead of talking.

I think that's very optimistic, considering these issues have been around a long time. Whenever Henry or Steve tells me that Markus has been told of an issue, I shut up except to respond to other posters in the thread.

Firstly, I'd prefer he fix the underlying engine as opposed to the depth chart

So would I, and I assume everyone, if the engine needed fixing. I don't know if the current engine is broken somehow. The old one wasn't - it did what it was supposed to do. Many people thought the new one would be better, and I agree with them, but that's improving the game, not fixing it.

The current depth chart is broken - it does not do what the designer intended it to do, and what it appears to the user to do. I understand that most people don't care, because they don't make much use of the depth chart, and/or don't track what actually occurs with it, so they don't realize that it's broken, but that doesn't mean that this is just my opinion or feeling. If you run the same tests that I did, you will get the same results showing the same flaws.

The depth chart problems came about because of an effort to improve the depth chart system that went wrong. That's not my complaint - mistakes happen. My point is that now that the mistakes have been identified (depth chart and elsewhere), there's too much focus on doing new, cool things and not enough on making things work correctly.

[IatricSB]

Originally posted by Aadik
Firstly, I'd prefer he fix the underlying engine as opposed to the depth chart- I don't see how we can question the desire to fix the baseball part of the baseball sim. Secondly, while I agree with your complaints to some extent, I think starting 4-5 threads saying basically the same thing is not the best way to go about fixing it- have you tried PM'ing beta testers etc and asking them to mention it and so forth ?

Agreed except for the "4-5 threads" part which is probably a low estimate.

[obaslg]

Agreed except for the "4-5 threads" part which is probably a low estimate.

Give me your address - I'll call the cops about that guy with a gun to your head making you read them.

[IatricSB]

I've already called the cops and they refuse to intervene.

[Eugene Church]

Originally posted by Skipaway
It's flaws that you considered outstandling, not outstanding flaws.

I think the game has a lot of outstanding flaws outstanding.

obaslg has 2 excellent suggestions: Fix what is wrong before new features are added in OOTP7 and indicate in the thread title a specific subject.

He seems to do testing to verify game problems and knows what he is talking about.