Is there a `black QB' mentality lingering in baseball?

[Johnny Slick]

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...ts/8361773.htm

I think this is partially due to random chance and a sign of the athletic times (more and more players coming from overseas, and I don't see a lot of competitive African teams), but there's something else at play here, too. What is it? I'm guessing that it's because the hip hop they all listen to makes your backbone slip and and everybody knows that's bad for pitching, but that might be racist, I don't know.

[BleedingCubbyBlue]

It's 2004. Get over it.

[akw4572]

Originally posted by Johnny Slick
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...ts/8361773.htm

I think this is partially due to random chance and a sign of the athletic times (more and more players coming from overseas, and I don't see a lot of competitive African teams), but there's something else at play here, too. What is it? I'm guessing that it's because the hip hop they all listen to makes your backbone slip and and everybody knows that's bad for pitching, but that might be racist, I don't know.

Yes it's racism, just like the racism that goes on against white guys in the backfields of the NFL, the defensive backfields of the NFL, and on the NBA court. Best players play, plain and simple. Isn't it amazing in sports where the best play regardless of color.

[sixto]

I'm just reading Moneyball now, but I assume by the end of the book Michael Lewis will have answered this question, since he pretty much answers any other question I might have.

[dougaiton]

My guess is that some of it to do with the college system - as most kids coming through college to play baseball end up being white, and their arms are less of a risk... but that can't be all the story.

It is interesting though - who was the last black pitcher to go in the first round of the ammy draft? I've no idea. The only one that springs to mind is Dwight Gooden in '82. There must be more since, but it still seems like its a shockingly low proportion.


EDIT: 'At the point when young players start to develop as pitchers or catchers, the gap begins. Both positions require extensive skill, and kids from wealthier areas commonly pay $50 to $100 an hour for private instruction. Kids from poorer areas don't get the same sort of instruction and are left in the dust.' Oh. There we go!

[Brick]

Originally posted by dougaiton
It is interesting though - who was the last black pitcher to go in the first round of the ammy draft? I've no idea. The only one that springs to mind is Dwight Gooden in '82. There must be more since, but it still seems like its a shockingly low proportion.

Brien Taylor was a first round pick in 1991 for the Yankees. He got hurt and never played in the majors.

[Malleus Dei]

This whole bigotry theory is crap. Face it, George Steinbrenner would draft and hire extra-terrestials if he thought that they could win for him.

[Cardinal Rule]

What bugs me about articles like this is that they are really good at pointing out the problem (even if it's debatable) but while 95% of this is telling us what the problem is, only 5% is dedicated to showing what people are doing to resolve this 'problem'.

I don't think race has anything to do with where kids play in Little League - I think it has far more to do with a) where kids and their parents want them to play and b) where their talent lies. Like Darren Oliver says - he wasn't a good runner but had a good arm so he stayed a pitcher. Think about Dave Winfield - he pitched and played the field in college - but do you think his value to a team (pro or otherwise) would be greater as a pitcher out there every 5 days, or an outfielder out there every day?

[KurtBevacqua]

Originally posted by dougaiton

It is interesting though - who was the last black pitcher to go in the first round of the ammy draft? I've no idea. The only one that springs to mind is Dwight Gooden in '82. There must be more since, but it still seems like its a shockingly low proportion.

Sabathia was a first rounder for Cleveland in 98. I mention him just because I am aware of it, I don't know about any others.

The black pitcher thing has come up in discussion many times since the 60's and 70's. Earl Wilson, a black pitcher in the 60's used to talk about how hard it was for him to be taken seriously by management as a good pitcher and that Bob Gibson was the only guy out there who they could point to. I think it has gotten somewhat better for black pitchers, but I never stopped to consider the black catcher issue.

If there is a problem to point to, I'd say it starts down in high school, legion ball, and maybe down into little league. Colleges and big league teams are so desperate for quality pitching I don't think they would be dumb enough to make race a factor. I think the problem occurs by the time the kids get out of high school.

I think what happens is high school and maybe legion ball or little league coaches aren't the best of talent scouts and use stereotypes. I experienced myself in football. I wound up a state finalist track athlete, yet in football I was put on the offensive line, even though I always beat our black RBs and WRs in sprint drills in practice. Lower level coaches place a kid at a certain position because they think the kid just belongs there on how he looks. So I suspect black kids are being made outfielders and middle infielders because of the perceived speed and quickness factor while white kids may be thought to have a better arm or placed at catcher because that's traditionally where the slow guy goes (remember Bad News Bears and the fat kid?).

I don't think this is institutional, but a stereotype issue being played out by coaches at lower levels that don't have a clue.

[dougaiton]

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
This whole bigotry theory is crap. Face it, George Steinbrenner would draft and hire extra-terrestials if he thought that they could win for him.

I wasn't suggesting that the draft process or even franchises are intentionally acting in a racist manner. It's just its interesting that barring all my totally glaring omissions, its actually reasonably hard to think of first-round black pitchers. That implies to me that there is for some reason a real shortage of black SP at even the lowest levels of the professional game. Why? I think Kurt makes a really good point.

Maybe its an issue of baseball's popularity (or lack of it) in the concrete inner-cities of North America.

[sixto]

The draft is meaningless in this case because most Latino players are not (or have not been) subject to the draft. Would Pedro Martinez be a first-round pick if he were Puerto Rican and being drafted today? Bartolo Colon? Benito Santiago? Ben Molina? Tony Pena? Ivan Rodriguez? Darren Oliver is throwing to a black catcher when he throws to Charles Johnson. So Oliver throwing to Pudge would be evidence of baseball's bias?

Rather than focusing on the ethnicity of pitchers, perhaps it would be more illustrative to assess players by economic background and more importantly, environment. If you want to know why there aren't more black catchers and pitchers, why not go and find out? Instead of just throwing out random accusations as this writer has done.

[dougaiton]

Originally posted by sixto
Rather than focusing on the ethnicity of pitchers, perhaps it would be more illustrative to assess players by economic background and more importantly, environment. If you want to know why there aren't more black catchers and pitchers, why not go and find out? Instead of just throwing out random accusations as this writer has done.

It is indeed probably more an economic issue than a race issue per se, and its very mcuh a piece about Oliver/Johnson which extrapolates out, rather than a piece on catchers and pitchers which uses those two as an example.

However, how's a hack going to make any money that way? If you start on generalisations and random accusations, Sixto, you could be on ESPN by the end of the week!

[drprestwood]

The interesting thing is that they're only focusing on "Black" players, not on "Minority" players.

I've heard this argument a lot, and it really seems to result in the conclusion the the popularity of baseball in certain communities is a larger issue.

[Malleus Dei]

Here's a question: if this issue is somehow minority-related or economic-related, then why are there so many good dark-skinned Latin/Hispanic pitchers who grew up in poverty? How does this theory account for the great Cuban pitchers - some of whom are very dark-skinned - who grew up in abject poverty?

I'm not buying it.

[CMH]

Did it ever occur to anyone that maybe black players don't wanna be pitchers and catchers?

I know, that's stereotypical, but I think being Dominican and Puerto Rican, I have the right to be stereotypical to Dominicans and Puerto Ricans.

And my steretype is that Puerto Rican's are catchers (they play other positions too) and Dominicans are outfielders (they also play other positions). But, you don't see Dominican catchers. And Cubans, for some reason, seem to be pitchers. Now, I know this has to do with the free agent system and what general managers are looking for, but this isn't obvious to anyone?

(I'm in no way saying this is racism. I'm saying the total opposite. I do, however, think it is interesting that certain ethnic groups play certain positions. What am I getting at? I don't know. Sorry).

[ihatenames]

I think there is probably some truth to that answer. My guess is that it has to do with role models. There are a lot of White kids who probably idiolize Nolan Ryan or Roger Clemans, ect. And say maybe some minorities look up to Bonds, Mays, Clemente, whom were all outfielders, so maybe that influences what position they want to play.

Let me add i am just guessing, and am no way trying to be racist. Just thinking out load. So i know that doesn't work for everyone, just thinking outload like i said. However i also really liked Ryne Sandberg and that influenced me to be a 2B in little league. So thats kinda where this idea came from. I know that doesn't involve everyone as a few of my other favorite players are Sammy Sosa and Kirby Pucket. But i started liking them after i played ball, so i didn't really influence what position i played. I hope that makes sense.

[JWay]

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
Here's a question: if this issue is somehow minority-related or economic-related, then why are there so many good dark-skinned Latin/Hispanic pitchers who grew up in poverty? How does this theory account for the great Cuban pitchers - some of whom are very dark-skinned - who grew up in abject poverty?

I'm not buying it.

agreed.

[CMH]

It's very possible.

I'm sure there are several (and that's an understatement) Dominican kids that want to be like Vlad Guerrero or Sammy Sosa. Interestingly, enough, they are usually associated with the Dominican Republic. Yet, no one talks about Alex Rodriguez in that same light. I don't know why, but it just makes me curious.

And I'm sure there are several (another understatment) Puerto Rican kids that look up to Ivan Rodriguez, Tony Pena, Javy Lopez, Bengie Molina, Sandy Alomar, and Jorge Posada.

Of course, I'm only half-right because Bernie Williams, Jose Vidro, Juan Gonzalez, Mike Lowell, Roberto Alomar, and Carlos Beltran are also Puerto Rican.

[sixto]

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
Here's a question: if this issue is somehow minority-related or economic-related, then why are there so many good dark-skinned Latin/Hispanic pitchers who grew up in poverty? How does this theory account for the great Cuban pitchers - some of whom are very dark-skinned - who grew up in abject poverty?

I'm not buying it.

The economics are not a factor when economics are not a factor for the culture as a whole. Most Cubans live in poverty, so therefore it's not a factor. Furthermore, most professional-quality Cubans have played for the national team, where they get the best training available in the country.

But it is a factor in the US, where 1) poverty is not the status quo, 2) the poor do not have access to the best training, and 3) there is a significant percentage of American poor who are ethnic minorities, which is not true in Cuba.

What you have to ask yourself is, why in the world are major-league franchises establishing baseball academies in San Pedro, or Caracas, or Seoul, or Italy, instead of in Compton, Newark and East. St. Louis?

[Malleus Dei]

Originally posted by YankeePride
Did it ever occur to anyone that maybe black players don't wanna be pitchers and catchers?

Actually that had crossed my mind. There aren't many blacks in some particular non-baseball professions, like geology and veterinary science, and no one seems to know why this is either. The doors to those fields are certainly open to them, but they just don't seem to be walking in much.

But the next obvious question is why wouldn't a black guy want to be a pitcher or a geologist or a vet? (And is asking these questions somehow racist?)