career stage question

[jbmagic]

on career stage like prime, beginning, pre-prime, post prime, etc what the point of having it if all boxers in this game start off at 0-0 record?


and what does those rating mean...thanks

[cubedrum]

If you wanted to do a historical sim, you could use the career stage ratings to get better historical accuracy. For example if you fought Marciano vs. Joe Louis with both at prime, Joe wins most of the time. However the two actually met with Joe losing, at the end of his career. For an accurate historical sim, you would have to set Marciano to "prime" and Louis to career stage "end". The possibilities are endless. Corbett vs. Sullivan right up to Prime Tyson vs. the aging late 80's pretenders. It should be noted that active fighters don't get this choice.

Cube

[maxx]

Although the feature is intended for the purpose mentioned by Cube, some of us also use it to "age" fighters in our universes. For example, in my universe when a fighter begins his career his career stage is set at Beginning. As he progresses, I shift his career stage forward depending on his wins/losses. He improves, hits his prime, and eventually begins a decline into retirement.

[jbmagic]

how many wins u do before u change the career stage?

[crusadecat]

That really depends on the individual player and each individual boxer. I suppose 20 in an historical sense maybe 10-15 in the modern age.

[maxx]

I actually use a formula I created to come up with the career stage moves just because I didn't want every fighter switching career stages at exactly the same point. The spreadsheet uses things like wins, losses, losing streaks, KO's, KO'd, dominating decisions, etc. When I developed it, I assumed the average career would be about 50 fights and just based the numbers on that.

But, as with many aspects of this game, you can do it however you like.

[American_Ernesider]

Maxx...anyway you could give me your formula? I used to have a few boxing games and I tried to base it on info like that.

Question for you and everyone else -- At what point are you introducing fighters into your universal leagues? And what are you using to determine this?

Thanks!

[maxx]

AE: It's all very convoluted & just created out of thin air when I had way too much time on my hands. Anyway, the general idea was to shorten the time in the Pre-Prime stage for guys who are doing well and give them a longer Prime, while the guys not doing so well spend more time at Pre-Prime and have shorter Primes. I built into the forumla the assumption that a fighter who was winning by KO or commanding decisions would progress faster through Pre-Prime and have a longer overall career. Of course, there are a lot of problems with that assumption but I wanted to make it variable enough so that I'd end up with a variety of career lengths.

So far, it has worked out fairly well, although it does require quite a bit of tracking. Since I run a relatively small universe where I'm ageing fighters (about 150 fighters total at any one time) and I watch all the fights, it's not such a big deal.

You should always be careful what you ask for; here it is:

Beginning: 0-10 fights for everyone.

Pre-Prime: Need to reach 20 points to move out of Pre-Prime. Points are awarded once you've moved to Pre-Prime as follows: Wins by Stoppage: 1.75; UD (total point difference >= 10): 1.75; UD (total point diff. < 10): 1.25: Split/Majority/Draw/DQ/NC: 1; Losses by Stoppage: .75; by UD (diff >=10): .75; all other losses: 1. The idea here was that fighters who won big would advance quicker, those who struggled would linger longer. I don't take into account quality of competition, which in the real world would be a major factor.

Prime: Prime points start at 0. When you hit 25 points, you move on to Post-Prime. There's a penalty/bonus for the length of the fighter's Pre-Prime stage. I take the number of fights it took the fighter to reach Prime and subtract 17. If a fighter made it in less than 17, those negative points are are added to the start of the Prime years to extend the fighter's prime. Positive points are added to the point total to shorten the Prime stage (in other words, the guy took more punishment to reach Prime so his career is shortened). There is also an automatic retirement for fighters who have 15 consecutive losses or who are stopped 20 times in their career.

The Prime points are awarded as follows: Wins by KO and UD (point diff >= 10): .5; UD (diff < 10): .75; all other wins/draws: 1; Losses by KO: 1.8; UD (diff >=10): 1.6; UD (diff< 10): 1.4; all other losses: 1.2. There's also a cumulative penalty for losing streaks of: 2 fights: .5; 3-4: 1; 5-6: 1.5; 7+: 2. Again, the idea here is the reverse of in the Pre-Prime stage. The more dominant you are, the longer you remain at Prime.

Once a fighter hits 25 Points, he moves to Post-Prime. Post-Prime lasts for 10 points, the streak penalty is eliminated (I didn't want to cut the Post-Prime too short), and the other points stay the same except the "all other" win & loss categories move to 1.25 points, and the stoppage losses move to 2 points.

After 10 Post-Prime points are earned, the fighter moves to End. End lasts for 5 fights and then the fighter retires. The only exception is that if, and the end of the 5th fight, the fighter is on a 2 fight or more win streak he can keep going until he loses.

Well, if you managed to make it through that mess, you deserve some kind of award. Hope it at least gives you some ideas (or illustrates some bad ideas). Let me know if you have any questions (other than whether I have a real life).

[maxx]

Oh, with regard to introducing fighters into the universe, I do it on a completely random basis. Each division has 31 active fighters. When one retires, another one is added. I began each division in a staggered manner so that I'd have a variety of career stages at any one time. When a new guy enters, there are usually a number of other fighter's at the beginning or end of their careers to avoid being thrown in too fast. In my universe, Beginners cannot be scheduled against Primes unless the Beginner has somehow managed to crack the top 10.

[American_Ernesider]

Thanks again. When I had a similar text based boxing game I tried to create a formula, and while it wasn't as detailed as yours the theories behind it were similar (success at pre-prime you move up faster, etc. etc.) I think I'm going to work your formula out with some of the divisions I know less about and I'll see how it works for me. I'm looking forward to it.

Another set of questions:

1) How are you setting up fights (randomly with certain restictions, or otherwise)? Also, are you doing anything datewise with the fights?

2) What is your general rule for bout duration with regards to the various career stages?

Thanks!

[jbmagic]

maxx your awesome


do fighters retire automactily in title bout game?


thanks

can u give us aexample how to set up a diviision of 31 active figheter....

can u list the steps in how u play your universe thanks

[maxx]

AE:

I only focus on 5 divisions: Light, Welter, Middle, Lightheavy & Heavy (I've combined all the Jr. divisions & the Cruisers with the primary divisions). I work on a calendar of 20 fightcards (I don't really worry about the date, I just change it one month b/w fight cards). Each fight card features a fight from each division, with one division getting 2 fights on a rotating basis.

Each fight card has one mandatory fight during the 20 fight card cycle. The 20 mandatories include 5 Championship fights, 5 title fights for a lesser belt that I created for each division kind of like a regional belt, 5 top 10 fights, and 5 fights used to help ensure that there will be a contender for the title.

For the non-mandatory fights, a division's fight is chosen either both fighters randomly (with a 30-sided die - which is one of the reasons I chose 30 contenders & a champ as my limit) or by one random fighter having the choice of opponents (this purely random/choice rotates with each fight card).

For the "choice" fights, I put myself in the role of the fighter's manager & make the fight that makes the most career sense. This part is one where the ageing formula really comes into play because strategically you have incentive to make or avoid certain kinds of fights depending on the fighter's career stage, age points, losing streak, etc. For example, sometimes you'll take a fight for an hopefully easy win even though it won't move you up in the ratings just to stop a losing streak and avoid the losing streak penalty. When you're getting to near the end of Prime or into the Post-Prime stage, you may want to avoid big punchers who can shorten your career faster. Or, when you know you're almost to the end of Prime, you may be more willing to take chances to get that title shot.

It also plays into when to move multi-division fighters because time is running out. For example, just the other day I had Michael Nunn decide to move up rather than face John Mugabi because, at that stage of Nunn's career, a KO loss would have hurt him too much.

The main rules for the non-mandatory fights are that (a) Primes cannot fight Beginners unless the Beginner is in the Top 10 and (b) a Top 10 ranked fighter cannot fight an opponent ranked 20-30. Other than that, it's wide open.

The Top 10 mandatory fight is chosen in a totally random manner by the role of a die.

Championship fights and the regional title fights have their own set of rules.

As for bout duration, I unrealistically avoid the low round fights and have all regular fights 10 rounders. Championship fights are 15 rounds, regional title and Top 10 fights are 12 rounders.

[maxx]

JBMagic:

You have to do the career stages & retirement by hand. It's one of the reasons I prefer using a smaller universe when I'm using ageing. Currently, there is no way to age automatically. However, the game developers are working on a role play game due out in a year or so where all that and much more will be done within the game.

As I mentioned, I set up each division on a staggered basis so that I would have fighters at different career stages. I began initially running an 8 person double elimination tournament. I then ran a 16 person double elimination tournament adding 8 to the original 8. Next I held 2 fight cards using 12 of the fighters randomly selected from the 16. After that, I brought in 8 more fighters and had them fight a single elimination tournament with the 8 fighters from the second set.

I now had 24 fighters and they fought on 2 fight cards I put together. I brought in 8 more fighters who fought a single elimination tournament with the 3rd set of 8. All 32 fighters then fought on 3 fight cards (with 4 of the fighters from the 4th set getting 2 bouts each).

By this time I had 32 fighters with a few at Prime and the rest at Pre-Prime and beginning. I then ran 2 separate 16 man single elimination tournaments. The 2 winners then fought for the title on a fight card with 5 other randomly chosen fights.

Once I had a champion, I ran no more tournaments and used the 20 fight card cycle described above. Although I use my own ranking system, I initially used the game's ranking to set my top 30 contenders. The one leftover fighter (the 32nd) decided to take a break from the ring. He resumes his career when the first fighter retires or decides to move out of the division.

[Lee]

A formula I use is to have each new fighter at Beginning for 1 year. Pre-prime is 2-4 years, based on a random dice roll. Prime is 4-8 years, again based on a random dice roll compared to a chart. Post prime 2-4 years and end from that point on until retirement. A fighter stays in end stage for one year, then after that I will roll after each fight to see if he retires (Again I made a chart) with a higher chance to retire after a loss. I have all my fighters on an excel sheet and have already rolled to determine when they will hit each stage in my HBA universe and I make the changes at the beginning of January each year. The only thing not planned in advance is retirement. I find this is easiest to manage for what I am doing.

[JohnnyBemch]

Very good info guys!

[jbmagic]

for your fighters..how u decide to pick for a trainer and cutman, etc...


thanks

[maxx]

I just check the random button & let the game choose.
Otherwise, if you want to be historically accurate, it'll take some research. Boxrec.com does provide info. on the cornermen for some fighters, but for a lot of guys it's not easy to find the facts (also, many fighters had multiple guys in their corners over their careers).

[crusadecat]

I am trying to make mine historically accurate. There is so many trainers that are not in the game of course so I've added some but I'm trying to add only the greats or the well known from history.

[dempsonny]

Introducing fighters;
I use 5 different era's in boxing. 1890's- @1924, 1925-1950, 1951-1975, 1976-1990, 1990-present.
I've translated them into WBA, WBO, WBC, IBF, IBO. My Universe starts in 1915. Fighters coming onto to the scene usually come in with preset records. For instance Larry Holmes enters with a record of 6-0 then meets the first fighter in the game Kevin Isaacs who would have a 2-0 record. Ali would enter 9 years into his era which would be 9 years after the whole universe start year of 1915 so Ali would be introduced in 1924 as would every fighter 9 years into their era. Nothing is in concrete though. Fighters will not be killed in cars, motorcycles, airplanes and by guns. Fighters may start out fighting the guys they actually met in their careers but their paths will change according to their progress. Norton probably will meet Frazier and Holmes will fight Dokes, Coetzee, Thomas and Page. Dempsey will also have to cross the color line and fight Wills as will Sullivan. Johnson will also have to give Jeanette, Wills, McVey and Langford title shots should he win the title before them.

Gus

[American_Ernesider]

dempsonny:

What are you basing your pre-set records on? In addition, is everyone entering your universe at the "Beginning' of their career. For instance, when Ali enters in 1924, is he a "Beginner" who might face someone like James Jefferies in his Post-Prime?