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| OOTP Dynasty Reports Tell us about the OOTP dynasties you have built! |
| View Poll Results: Which of these guys (if any) should be in the Hall? | |||
| Nicholas Danek - Yes |
   
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20 | 80.00% |
| Nicholas Danek - No |
  
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5 | 20.00% |
| Aron Grandstaff - Yes |
  
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7 | 28.00% |
| Aron Grandstaf - No |
  
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17 | 68.00% |
| Christopher Higham - Yes |
  
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1 | 4.00% |
| Christopher Higham - No |
  
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23 | 92.00% |
| Benjamin Neilson - Yes |
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8 | 32.00% |
| Benjamin Neilson - No |
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16 | 64.00% |
| Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 25. You may not vote on this poll | |||
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Thread Tools |
02-04-2004, 10:04 AM
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#1 |
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Major Leagues
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Bouncing between Phillies and Red Sox territory
Posts: 357
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Should any of these guys go into my Hall of Fame?
I'm playing out a league and its just started its 18th year, so the Hall of Famers are starting to appear.
These guys were passed up by the auto-induction, but I felt they were all worth noting and was wondering what everyone thought of there careers. The league itself is compsed of two 18-team leagues, playing a 180 game schedule (that I just dropped to 162 for 1968).
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I'm a lifelong Phillies fan - "Hey, at least we beat the Braves in '93." |
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02-04-2004, 10:15 AM
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#2 |
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Major Leagues
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Bouncing between Phillies and Red Sox territory
Posts: 357
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Nicholas Danek, Closer
Nicholas played from 1951 to 1966 for the St. Louis Cardinals (1951-56) and Toronto Blue Jays (1957-66). He compiled the following stats: Career Pitching Stats Code:
Year G GS W L SV ERA IP HA R ER BB K CG SHO Teams 1951 40 0 2 6 14 4.43 44.2 40 27 22 14 44 0 0 STL 1952 68 0 6 4 28 3.51 89.2 59 37 35 31 109 0 0 STL 1953 70 0 6 8 33 4.20 70.2 53 34 33 28 82 0 0 STL 1954 73 0 6 6 37 1.97 87.0 50 26 19 30 110 0 0 STL 1955 78 0 9 7 37 2.64 95.1 64 34 28 24 116 0 0 STL 1956 73 0 9 3 38 1.84 78.1 48 17 16 15 79 0 0 STL,NL 1957 53 0 3 9 33 4.04 55.2 45 32 25 10 53 0 0 TOR 1958 52 0 7 1 38 1.55 64.0 24 12 11 11 63 0 0 TOR,AL 1959 69 0 7 6 44 2.72 76.0 47 23 23 12 74 0 0 TOR 1960 70 0 10 3 46 1.90 75.2 56 17 16 15 54 0 0 TOR,AL 1961 75 0 9 4 50 1.77 81.1 48 20 16 12 53 0 0 TOR <--- World Series Win 1962 61 0 7 5 38 2.95 64.0 44 24 21 12 38 0 0 TOR 1963 74 0 5 2 51 1.33 81.1 37 15 12 10 66 0 0 TOR,AL 1964 61 0 2 4 43 2.45 62.1 54 17 17 24 42 0 0 TOR 1965 46 0 2 1 1 6.09 68.0 84 46 46 25 25 0 0 TOR 1966 39 0 1 0 2 4.48 66.1 76 40 33 12 26 0 0 TOR Total 1002 0 91 69 533 2.89 1160.1 829 421 373 285 1034 0 0 Drafted in 1st round, 30th overall pick, by St. Louis in 1950... Earned first career win on 10/2/1951... Had first career hit (double) on 6/5/1954, off Carlos Delarosa (CIN)... Was selected to the 1956 Allstar game... Signed as a free agent by Toronto on 2/3/1957 to a 4-year deal worth $4,708,400 per year... Was selected to the 1958 Allstar game... Was selected to the 1960 Allstar game... Won World Championship with Toronto in 1960... Was selected to the 1963 Allstar game... Signed as a free agent by Houston on 2/10/1967 to a 1-year deal worth $543,800 per year... Released by Houston on 3/24/1967... Retired in 1968. Pitching Leader Boards Appearances Saves 1954 - 37 - 8th 1955 - 37 - 6th 1956 - 38 - 6th 1958 - 38 - 7th 1959 - 44 - 5th 1960 - 46 - 1st 1961 - 50 - 2nd 1962 - 38 - 10th 1963 - 51 - 1st 1964 - 43 - 5th It should also be noted that he finished his career with an average WHIP of 0.96. Aron Grandstaf, SP Aron played from 1950-1958 for the LA Dodgers (1950-52), Anchorage Huskies (1952-57), and New York Yankees (1958). He was the Pitcher of the Year for 1950, '51, '52, and '53. He compiled the following stats: Career Pitching Stats Code:
Year G GS W L SV ERA IP HA R ER BB K CG SHO Teams 1950 34 34 19 7 0 2.36 252.0 216 72 66 51 158 7 5 LA 1951 42 42 21 7 0 2.41 299.1 256 85 80 85 121 4 2 LA,NL 1952 41 41 22 5 0 2.21 301.0 236 79 74 81 135 13 7 LA,ANC,NL 1953 40 40 20 9 0 2.33 304.2 306 96 79 107 156 10 4 ANC,NL 1954 41 41 18 7 0 3.27 286.1 261 114 104 98 132 4 1 ANC,NL 1955 29 29 13 7 0 4.14 180.1 209 91 83 55 79 3 0 ANC 1956 39 39 20 11 0 3.32 303.2 307 127 112 119 93 14 2 ANC,NL 1957 32 31 15 10 0 4.52 227.0 256 123 114 110 107 5 1 ANC,NL 1958 17 4 1 1 0 6.66 50.0 52 39 37 30 22 1 0 NYA Total 315 301 149 64 0 3.06 2204.1 2099 826 749 736 1003 61 22 Pitching Leader Boards Appearances ERA 1950 - 2.36 - 1st 1951 - 2.41 - 1st 1952 - 2.21 - 1st 1953 - 2.33 - 1st 1954 - 3.27 - 3rd 1956 - 3.32 - 3rd WHIP 1950 - 1.06 - 3rd 1951 - 1.14 - 1st 1952 - 1.05 - 1st 1953 - 1.36 - 10th 1954 - 1.25 - 5th Wins 1950 - 19 - 1st 1951 - 21 - 2nd 1952 - 22 - 1st 1953 - 20 - 2nd 1954 - 18 - 6th 1956 - 20 - 10th IP 1950 - 252.0 - 6th 1951 - 299.1 - 1st 1952 - 301.0 - 1st 1953 - 304.2 - 1st 1954 - 286.1 - 3rd 1956 - 303.2 - 1st K's 1951 - 121 - 8th CG 1950 - 7 - 1st 1952 - 13 - 1st 1953 - 10 - 1st 1955 - 3 - 8th 1956 - 14 - 2nd SHO 1950 - 5 - 1st 1951 - 2 - 5th 1952 - 7 - 1st 1953 - 4 - 1st 1956 - 2 - 6th Christopher Higham, SP Christopher played from 1950 to 1964. He played for the Tampa Bay Devil Rays (1950-55), Chicago Cubs (1956-60), and Cincinatti Reds (1960-1964). He was the 1952 Pitcher of the Year. He compiled the following stats: Code:
Year G GS W L SV ERA IP HA R ER BB K CG SHO Teams 1950 18 14 5 10 0 3.94 98.1 96 47 43 31 71 2 2 TB 1951 40 40 14 15 0 4.91 247.1 307 146 135 107 154 5 3 TB 1952 40 40 24 6 0 3.33 289.0 249 119 107 115 240 6 1 TB,AL 1953 37 37 15 11 0 3.54 261.2 271 120 103 94 242 6 3 TB 1954 39 39 23 11 0 3.10 279.0 252 104 96 112 236 3 1 TB,AL 1955 38 38 16 13 0 4.21 245.2 256 128 115 100 211 3 0 TB 1956 39 39 20 10 0 3.38 296.0 263 125 111 106 245 11 1 CHN 1957 39 39 19 13 0 2.92 308.1 277 115 100 100 219 16 2 CHN 1958 40 40 18 15 0 3.38 314.0 300 132 118 122 209 16 3 CHN 1959 39 39 15 20 0 3.90 298.0 303 139 129 117 210 12 1 CHN 1960 39 38 17 17 0 3.39 300.0 299 126 113 118 208 18 2 CHN CIN 1961 39 39 18 13 0 2.88 312.2 286 109 100 117 211 14 1 CIN 1962 39 39 13 24 0 3.96 307.0 324 148 135 156 215 15 1 CIN 1963 38 38 13 21 0 5.45 259.1 331 177 157 167 129 7 1 CIN 1964 24 24 8 10 0 4.86 164.2 164 92 89 118 89 6 1 CIN Total 548 543 238 209 0 3.73 3981.0 3978 1827 1651 1680 2889 140 23 Pitching Leader Boards Appearances ERA 1952 - 3.33 - 3rd 1954 - 3.10 - 3rd 1956 - 3.38 - 4th 1957 - 2.92 - 3rd 1958 - 3.38 - 10th 1961 - 2.88 - 6th WHIP 1952 - 1.26 - 6th 1954 - 1.30 - 7th 1956 - 1.25 - 7th Wins 1952 - 24 - 1st 1954 - 23 - 4th Losses 1959 - 20 - 2nd 1962 - 24 - 1st 1963 - 21 - 5th IP 1951 - 247.1 - 9th 1952 - 289.0 - 3rd 1953 - 261.2 - 10th 1954 - 279.0 - 6th 1956 - 296.0 - 4th 1957 - 308.1 - 6th 1958 - 314.0 - 5th 1961 - 312.2 - 6th 1962 - 307.0 - 8th K's 1951 - 154 - 3rd 1952 - 240 - 1st 1953 - 242 - 1st 1954 - 236 - 1st 1955 - 211 - 3rd 1956 - 245 - 3rd 1957 - 219 - 2nd 1958 - 209 - 4th 1959 - 210 - 5th 1960 - 208 - 3rd 1961 - 211 - 2nd 1962 - 215 - 1st BB 1962 - 156 - 1st 1963 - 167 - 1st CG 1951 - 5 - 10th 1956 - 11 - 10th 1957 - 16 - 1st 1958 - 16 - 7th 1960 - 18 - 3rd 1961 - 14 - 7th SHO 1950 - 2 - 7th 1951 - 3 - 7th 1953 - 3 - 3rd 1957 - 2 - 7th 1958 - 3 - 8th Benjamin Neilson, SS Benjamin played from 1953-1967 for the Virginia Admirals (1953-58) and New York Yankees (1959-1967). He compiled the following stats: Career Batting Stats Code:
Year G AB H 2B 3B HR RBI R BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS Teams 1953 51 182 52 11 5 0 25 44 46 21 23 9 .286 .430 .401 .831 VIR 1954 176 585 197 44 16 4 92 143 185 68 82 19 .337 .496 .487 .983 VIR 1955 172 573 188 32 16 0 101 135 180 50 77 21 .328 .489 .440 .929 VIR 1956 173 595 202 33 14 2 79 115 145 45 76 23 .339 .469 .452 .921 VIR 1957 173 632 211 25 20 3 72 146 138 53 98 22 .334 .453 .451 .904 VIR 1958 171 590 180 21 27 1 48 142 143 66 86 27 .305 .441 .437 .878 VIR 1959 171 608 197 34 10 1 60 115 129 47 86 26 .324 .442 .418 .860 NYA 1960 171 631 178 29 10 2 51 127 113 68 75 18 .282 .391 .369 .760 NYA 1961 150 512 157 26 9 5 48 86 84 44 44 7 .307 .404 .422 .826 NYA 1962 170 625 165 17 9 1 44 98 91 78 61 17 .264 .358 .325 .682 NYA 1963 166 577 133 18 8 0 44 81 76 116 41 7 .231 .320 .289 .609 NYA 1964 84 168 40 5 3 1 16 27 27 40 12 8 .238 .344 .321 .665 NYA 1965 40 54 13 2 0 1 6 11 17 12 10 0 .241 .423 .333 .756 NYA 1966 69 177 46 11 2 1 19 33 21 41 10 1 .260 .338 .362 .700 NYA 1967 45 93 17 3 0 1 8 12 13 19 1 2 .183 .283 .247 .530 NYA Total 1982 6602 1976 311 149 23 713 1315 1408 768 782 207 .299 .422 .402 .824 Batting Leader Boards Appearances AVG 1959 - .324 - 7th OBP 1954 - .496 - 1st 1955 - .489 - 3rd 1956 - .469 - 3rd 1957 - .453 - 4th 1958 - .441 - 5th 1959 - .442 - 1st 1961 - .404 - 10th OPS 1954 - .983 - 6th Doubles 1954 - 44 - 7th Triples 1957 - 20 - 8th 1958 - 27 - 1st Runs 1954 - 143 - 6th 1955 - 135 - 10th 1957 - 146 - 2nd 1958 - 142 - 2nd 1960 - 127 - 10th BB 1954 - 185 - 4th 1955 - 180 - 4th 1956 - 145 - 6th 1957 - 138 - 7th 1958 - 143 - 1st 1959 - 129 - 3rd 1960 - 113 - 7th SB 1954 - 82 - 1st 1955 - 77 - 1st 1956 - 76 - 1st 1957 - 98 - 1st 1958 - 86 - 2nd 1959 - 86 - 1st 1960 - 75 - 1st 1962 - 61 - 4th Finally, it should be noted that these players had there careers in a system with 36 teams (18 per league), and played a 180 game schedule.
__________________
I'm a lifelong Phillies fan - "Hey, at least we beat the Braves in '93." |
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02-04-2004, 10:38 AM
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#3 |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 2,731
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Yes on the closer, no on everyone else. Danek had several dominating years and his career WHIP of 0.96 stands for me. 500+ saves makes him good enough for me.
Grandstaf would have had a very good chance had he played longer. 8 years isn't enough even though they were all pretty good years. Higham looks like a mediocre player who had 2 great years and hung around for awhile. Simply not good enough. As for Neilson, I can't really vote for a player for the HOF that had zero All-Star appearances. (The playoff appearances are beyond his control and can't really be held against him in my opinion.)
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Formerly in the OTBA - Stockholm Royal Squirrels of Sweden OOTP Grand League Champion 2015 |
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02-04-2004, 11:19 AM
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#4 |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 3,827
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I voted 'no' on all four, with the closer the closest to a 'yes' vote. He had a lot of saves, but it's inflated by 10% when compared to actual ML stats due to the extra games each season. Also, he only finished in the top 4 in saves three times. His WHIP is strong, and he won a lot of games for a RP, so could have gone either way.
If Grandstaf would have had 4-5 more solid years I would have voted 'yes'. Higham is an average SP with too many losses and a mediocre WHIP. Nielson had eight good hitting seasons, but deteriorated very quickly and his last five years were crappy, which also happen to be the most recent ones for voters to remember. His fielding was apparently good, but since he never made an All-Star team it doesn't appear as though he was ever among the elite at his position. Chris |
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02-04-2004, 11:35 AM
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#5 |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 2,721
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I voted yes/yes/no/no.
I usually say no to closers, and I almost said no to this one, but Danek had some pretty dominant years, posting an ERA below 2.00 6 times. I would have liked to see him higher up in the league leaders, but I can't really fault him in that category since I don't know how many save opportunities he had. Aron Grandstaf had a brief career (was he injured?) but it's hard to say he wasn't a great one, with 4 best pitcher awards and 6 all-star appearances in just over 8 seasons. If he had vanished after the 1954 season I'd still vote for him. Longevity IMHO has always been a little over rated in the HOF world; I'd take a guy who had 2000 hits and a .350 average over a guy who pounded out 4000 hits while hitting .299 any day. Case in point; Higham and Neilson. Both of these guys have decent career stats but it doesn't look like either one was ever a dominant player. edit: I overlooked Neilson's SB totals. Man, he was fast. Where does he rank on the all-time SB list?
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NPBL - Pennsylvania Freedom AFBL - North Carolina Aviators MLB-Pro - Kansas City Royals Last edited by Chappy; 02-04-2004 at 11:39 AM. |
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02-04-2004, 02:29 PM
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#6 |
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Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: somewhere where I don't know where I am
Posts: 3,251
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I agree with Chappy. The first two pitchers seemed to be at the top of their games. How can you overlook 4 consecutive POTY awards, whether he pitched 4 years or 20? It would be probably be more watered down if he pitched longer. Both of them are deserving.
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02-04-2004, 05:04 PM
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#7 |
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Minors (Double A)
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Alexandria, VA
Posts: 177
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I voted yes on Danek - looks like one of the elite relievers of his time.
Grandstaf got a tough no from me - it was close, but I think his career either needed to be a little bit longer or a little bit more dominant. In the end, four great seasons, two good ones and 2.5 mediocre-to-bad ones doesn't quite do it. Higham strikes me as your league's Jack Morris. Stuck around forever, was okay-to-good but never really great, and people want to put him in the hall for it. I give Neilson a yes vote. It looks to me like he was a premier leadoff hitter for a decade, and even with five mediocre seasons at the tail end of his career his career OBP was .422. Couple that with the 782 stolen bases, 79% success rate and four gold glove awards, and he's in. |
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02-04-2004, 09:21 PM
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#8 |
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Minors (Double A)
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Dermot, KS
Posts: 197
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Danek: Yes.
Grandstaf: No, not a long enough career. Higham: No. Neilson: No.
__________________
Guilt or innocence, that's not my job. It's my duty to pick up scum-sucking punks like yourself who are accused of a crime. A jury of twelve really stupid people who are easily swayed by rich, fat-cat, slimy lawyers, who'll do anything but tell the truth, will sit in judgment of you. It's as American as a burrito. Eschew obfuscation. |
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02-04-2004, 09:46 PM
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#9 |
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Major Leagues
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Bouncing between Phillies and Red Sox territory
Posts: 357
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Grandstaf wasn't injured - for some reason my league is suffering a bad case of the "I quit" blues. Elite players are just giving up early in their creers (I'm wondering if it had anything to do with the fairly brutal 180 game schedule - thats why I lowered it down to 162 in '68).
As far as Neilson, he's currently ranked 3rd all-time, behind one retired HoF gimme and another active player, and he'll likely be bumped down a peg or two fairly soon.
__________________
I'm a lifelong Phillies fan - "Hey, at least we beat the Braves in '93." |
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02-08-2004, 10:35 AM
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#10 |
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Major Leagues
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Horicon, Wi
Posts: 330
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I voted yes/no/no/yes
Danek to me certainly dominated his position throughout his career. Grandstaf I would have voted yes but he only pitched for 9 seasons, granted that he was truly the best pitcher his first 4 seasons by winning 4 straight Pitcher of the Year Awards, his stats drop off dramatically his last 5 seasons. It would be curious to know why they drop of as much as they do. Higham is clearly a no, sure he had a couple seasons where he dominated hitters but a majority of them were average. Neilson I voted yes for him based upon his SB's, he definately was a base-stealing threat during his career and also I'd assume that his triples are also amongst a single season record |
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