Hopkins

PittPanther · 01-03-2004, 11:24 AM

What do some of the students here think of Hopkins in relationship to other greats at 160?

At 38, he still seems to be at his peak, evidenced by his recent dismantling of Joppy, a fight that he completely dominated.

Jim Trunzo · 01-03-2004, 11:48 AM

My mind has changed considerably regarding Hopkins. I think that I underestimated him in the past. I see no way that Hopkins is not a Top Ten all-time middleweight.

Boxingnut · 01-03-2004, 01:11 PM

I agree entirely. I have come round to thinking that Hopkins is all-time top 10 too. He looked great versus Joppy last time out.

hamed · 01-03-2004, 04:09 PM

That's true, Joppy isn't chopped liver but he beat him up like he was some tomato can! If Joppy is true to his word, Hopkins basically made Joppy say "No mas" regarding his boxing career.

PittPanther · 01-03-2004, 06:23 PM

It's hard to dismiss his accomplishments at 160, that is for sure. I would love to see one of the younger guns try to move up and fight him ala Trinidad.

wildhawke11 · 01-03-2004, 08:44 PM

Bert Sugar enters the Room -- winks at PittPanther
Then to shouts of --"CLEAR OFF" "YOU KNOW NOTHING" and
"STOP LIVING IN THE PAST YOU BUM" begins his speech !!!!!!

Hopkins i find so hard to place Historically, just as Jim does.
One of the problems is that the Middleweights which was once regarded as the elite division has been so very poor over these latter years. If your a historian of any sort the great fighter names that have been in that division jump out at you.

Monzon -- i hate him as a person, but we are talking boxing.
Greb -- about 400 fights -- 40 alone in one year
Robinson - might be the best fighter to ever step into a ring
Walker --check out who this guy took on and gave weight away to
Hagler -- in any historians top 10 but could have off nights
Ketchel -- in his time an all time great, so has to be there.
LaMotto -- No one wanted to meet this guy at his peak - to damn good
Cerdan --The USA never got to see him at his peak, watch him on film..

Followed by Zale, Flowers, Tiger, Benvenuti, Griffen, Darcy Burley, Wiliams, Fulmer oh hell the list is endless.
Now break Hopkins career down, who has he really beat that could complete with any of the above, or indeed who they beat.

This is not baseball, stats in boxing can be so deceiving Hopkins has fought in a division that is today even perhaps dating back to the 90s has been sadly lacking in talent, with maybe the exception of Roy Jones who all must remember did beat Hopkins. Other then that and maybe Tito his opposition compared to the fighters i previously mentioned is to say the least, very poor.

To my way of thinking to rate among the very best of all time you have to beat a lot better and face stiffer competition then Hopkins has.

Numbers can be used to judge a fighter in my opinion but only if they contain quality opposition. In this respect Hopkins records though looking impressive on paper is in truth lacking.
I feel Hopkins is a big fish in a small pond.
Throw him in the ocean and let him try to take on the Great White Sharks or Black Killer Whales of the past and i feel he would come up a little short.

I feel Hopkins would not be overshadowed by the greats and would be competitive with all, but generally come out the loser in most cases.

Good Fighter -- yes -- Great Fighter - maybe - Top Ten - not for me.
might get in my top 20. That's still a great achievement and place to be in that elite classy Middleweight division.

Holman Williams and Charlie Burley to just name two would have walked through Hopkins opposition, with the exception of maybe Roy Jones, and those two great fighters don't even make my Top 10.

In today's boxing world the idea is to pad a fighter's record with average or mediocre competition maybe giving him a record of 25 fights 25 wins so the less then knowledgeable boxing fan thinks this guy is a world beater but i think most on here who study the fight game are a little wise to that fact.
One Mans Thoughts.
Now where the hell is the exit door for this Room i got some fighters to check out.
Bert Sugar waves to All as he walks out the door.

The Bert Sugar bit is a private joke between Pitt and i Gentlemen

wildhawke11 · 01-03-2004, 08:55 PM

Yes i know i missed out Roy Jones, and a few others but i have had a little drink so forgive me please Gentleman.

Anyway in our game Roy wont meet the real great MWs so as a punishment i wont rate him there LOL

PittPanther · 01-03-2004, 09:36 PM

Charlie Burley has to be considered one of the best fighters to never hold the crown in any weight class.

Will Roy eventually be rated as a middy? What about Toney?

PittPanther · 01-03-2004, 09:52 PM

Back to Hopkins---

In a division that is historically full of talent, as mentioned by you Danny, it is very hard to rate among the elite of the division.

His most notable win would have to be against Trinidad, who moved up in weight to fight him.

That being said, 17 successful title defenses is quite an accomplishment for anyone.

Of note, going back and looking at the records, isn't it amazing how many all time great boxers Harry Greb beat?

wildhawke11 · 01-03-2004, 10:15 PM

100% on Panther
Robinson team steered him clear of Burley, i feel Ray would have beat him in a close fight but from there point of view why take a chance against a great fighter like Burley.
The tragedy is for guys like Burley and Co unlike today there was only one Champion. If fighting today the modern fan would call Burley the best fighter ever i think. But to most modern young fans i think Burley and Co are just names in an old book.

In this game at least Charlie Burley can come alive again and make a lot of new guys maybe ask or do some research on him. So all is not lost.

vistaman44 · 01-03-2004, 10:16 PM

Gotta go with Danny (and Bert!) on this one. I'd rate Hopkins somewhere between 15 and 25. That said, were he in any division but the middles or heavies it would be a different matter.

darthpb · 01-04-2004, 01:11 AM

I think everyone here agrees...real good fighter today, not top ten. You do have to give it up for all the title defenses though...

Boxingnut · 01-04-2004, 01:19 PM

Some excellent points made there and I concur with a lot of them.

In rating Hopkins' position in history it is difficult as he is still active. If he was to defeat say Calzaghe, De La Hoya and Roy Jones before he retires then I guess we would all have to re-evaluate him!!

Its true that some of his title defences have been against less than stellar opposition, however to paraphrase Vinnie Pazienza, I don't care if he defended against his mother 17 times, I'm sure she would of got lucky once!!

Guys like Segundo Mercado, Glencoffe Jackson, Simon Brown, Antwun Echols (twice), Keith Holmes, Felix Trinidad, William Joppy are all, at least good class fighters that Hopkins has defeated.

Hopkins reminds me of Hagler in a way. Not so much his fighting style but the fact that he paid his dues on the way up, he has waited a long time to achieve recognition and he is perhaps not outstanding in any one category but is at least good in all categories. Like Hagler I feel Hopkins could have held his own in any era's top ten.

I always like to use the evidence of my own eyes in determing how good or great a fighter is and in this respect it is a great shame there are no films of Harry Greb, however his record suggests he is in the top three middleweights of all time. Stanley Ketchel I am unsure about. The films I have seen of him have not impressed but then film making was in its infancy in those days and the equipment was not always up to the job. His record certainly indicates he is top ten material. Mickey Walker..............WOW, what a fighter!! If anyone lives up to their nickname (Toy Bulldog) it is him. There are so many more to mention in this division as it is chock full of talent.

Another thing about Hopkins is if you look at his defences that have gone to points he almost always wins 10 or 11 of the rounds.

Perhaps Bert Sugar can put his cigar back in his mouth now!!

Peace and respect to you all.

01-03-2004, 11:24 AM	#1
PittPanther All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 1,235	Hopkins What do some of the students here think of Hopkins in relationship to other greats at 160? At 38, he still seems to be at his peak, evidenced by his recent dismantling of Joppy, a fight that he completely dominated. __________________ Commitment Teamwork Pride Hail to Pitt!

01-03-2004, 06:23 PM	#5
PittPanther All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 1,235	It's hard to dismiss his accomplishments at 160, that is for sure. I would love to see one of the younger guns try to move up and fight him ala Trinidad. __________________ Commitment Teamwork Pride Hail to Pitt!

01-03-2004, 08:44 PM	#6
wildhawke11 All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: united kingdom Posts: 1,952	Bert Sugar enters the Room -- winks at PittPanther Then to shouts of --"CLEAR OFF" "YOU KNOW NOTHING" and "STOP LIVING IN THE PAST YOU BUM" begins his speech !!!!!! Hopkins i find so hard to place Historically, just as Jim does. One of the problems is that the Middleweights which was once regarded as the elite division has been so very poor over these latter years. If your a historian of any sort the great fighter names that have been in that division jump out at you. Monzon -- i hate him as a person, but we are talking boxing. Greb -- about 400 fights -- 40 alone in one year Robinson - might be the best fighter to ever step into a ring Walker --check out who this guy took on and gave weight away to Hagler -- in any historians top 10 but could have off nights Ketchel -- in his time an all time great, so has to be there. LaMotto -- No one wanted to meet this guy at his peak - to damn good Cerdan --The USA never got to see him at his peak, watch him on film.. Followed by Zale, Flowers, Tiger, Benvenuti, Griffen, Darcy Burley, Wiliams, Fulmer oh hell the list is endless. Now break Hopkins career down, who has he really beat that could complete with any of the above, or indeed who they beat. This is not baseball, stats in boxing can be so deceiving Hopkins has fought in a division that is today even perhaps dating back to the 90s has been sadly lacking in talent, with maybe the exception of Roy Jones who all must remember did beat Hopkins. Other then that and maybe Tito his opposition compared to the fighters i previously mentioned is to say the least, very poor. To my way of thinking to rate among the very best of all time you have to beat a lot better and face stiffer competition then Hopkins has. Numbers can be used to judge a fighter in my opinion but only if they contain quality opposition. In this respect Hopkins records though looking impressive on paper is in truth lacking. I feel Hopkins is a big fish in a small pond. Throw him in the ocean and let him try to take on the Great White Sharks or Black Killer Whales of the past and i feel he would come up a little short. I feel Hopkins would not be overshadowed by the greats and would be competitive with all, but generally come out the loser in most cases. Good Fighter -- yes -- Great Fighter - maybe - Top Ten - not for me. might get in my top 20. That's still a great achievement and place to be in that elite classy Middleweight division. Holman Williams and Charlie Burley to just name two would have walked through Hopkins opposition, with the exception of maybe Roy Jones, and those two great fighters don't even make my Top 10. In today's boxing world the idea is to pad a fighter's record with average or mediocre competition maybe giving him a record of 25 fights 25 wins so the less then knowledgeable boxing fan thinks this guy is a world beater but i think most on here who study the fight game are a little wise to that fact. One Mans Thoughts. Now where the hell is the exit door for this Room i got some fighters to check out. Bert Sugar waves to All as he walks out the door. The Bert Sugar bit is a private joke between Pitt and i Gentlemen __________________ Always in our Hearts - RIP Danny 1939 - 2010 Last edited by wildhawke11; 01-03-2004 at 09:02 PM.

01-03-2004, 08:55 PM	#7
wildhawke11 All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: united kingdom Posts: 1,952	Yes i know i missed out Roy Jones, and a few others but i have had a little drink so forgive me please Gentleman. Anyway in our game Roy wont meet the real great MWs so as a punishment i wont rate him there LOL __________________ Always in our Hearts - RIP Danny 1939 - 2010

01-03-2004, 09:36 PM	#8
PittPanther All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 1,235	Charlie Burley has to be considered one of the best fighters to never hold the crown in any weight class. Will Roy eventually be rated as a middy? What about Toney? __________________ Commitment Teamwork Pride Hail to Pitt!

01-03-2004, 11:48 AM	#2
Jim Trunzo OOTP Developments Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leechburg, PA Posts: 739	My mind has changed considerably regarding Hopkins. I think that I underestimated him in the past. I see no way that Hopkins is not a Top Ten all-time middleweight.

01-03-2004, 01:11 PM	#3
Boxingnut Major Leagues Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 372	I agree entirely. I have come round to thinking that Hopkins is all-time top 10 too. He looked great versus Joppy last time out.

01-03-2004, 04:09 PM	#4
hamed Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 2,073	That's true, Joppy isn't chopped liver but he beat him up like he was some tomato can! If Joppy is true to his word, Hopkins basically made Joppy say "No mas" regarding his boxing career.

01-03-2004, 09:52 PM	#9
PittPanther All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 1,235	Back to Hopkins--- In a division that is historically full of talent, as mentioned by you Danny, it is very hard to rate among the elite of the division. His most notable win would have to be against Trinidad, who moved up in weight to fight him. That being said, 17 successful title defenses is quite an accomplishment for anyone. Of note, going back and looking at the records, isn't it amazing how many all time great boxers Harry Greb beat? __________________ Commitment Teamwork Pride Hail to Pitt!

01-03-2004, 10:15 PM	#10
wildhawke11 All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: united kingdom Posts: 1,952	100% on Panther Robinson team steered him clear of Burley, i feel Ray would have beat him in a close fight but from there point of view why take a chance against a great fighter like Burley. The tragedy is for guys like Burley and Co unlike today there was only one Champion. If fighting today the modern fan would call Burley the best fighter ever i think. But to most modern young fans i think Burley and Co are just names in an old book. In this game at least Charlie Burley can come alive again and make a lot of new guys maybe ask or do some research on him. So all is not lost. __________________ Always in our Hearts - RIP Danny 1939 - 2010

01-03-2004, 10:16 PM	#11
vistaman44 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Auxvasse, Mo. Posts: 3,576	Gotta go with Danny (and Bert!) on this one. I'd rate Hopkins somewhere between 15 and 25. That said, were he in any division but the middles or heavies it would be a different matter. __________________ ---Mark (vistaman44) http://www.fistication.blogspot.com/ "What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters, compared to what lies within us." — Ralph Waldo Emerson, American essayist, philosopher and poet (1803-1882) ----------------------------------- Currently operating 1970s SM-HW, 1940s, African, 1980s LW and women's boxing universes

01-04-2004, 01:11 AM	#12
darthpb All Star Reserve Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Queens, NY a mile from Shea Posts: 690	I think everyone here agrees...real good fighter today, not top ten. You do have to give it up for all the title defenses though...

01-04-2004, 01:19 PM	#13
Boxingnut Major Leagues Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 372	Some excellent points made there and I concur with a lot of them. In rating Hopkins' position in history it is difficult as he is still active. If he was to defeat say Calzaghe, De La Hoya and Roy Jones before he retires then I guess we would all have to re-evaluate him!! Its true that some of his title defences have been against less than stellar opposition, however to paraphrase Vinnie Pazienza, I don't care if he defended against his mother 17 times, I'm sure she would of got lucky once!! Guys like Segundo Mercado, Glencoffe Jackson, Simon Brown, Antwun Echols (twice), Keith Holmes, Felix Trinidad, William Joppy are all, at least good class fighters that Hopkins has defeated. Hopkins reminds me of Hagler in a way. Not so much his fighting style but the fact that he paid his dues on the way up, he has waited a long time to achieve recognition and he is perhaps not outstanding in any one category but is at least good in all categories. Like Hagler I feel Hopkins could have held his own in any era's top ten. I always like to use the evidence of my own eyes in determing how good or great a fighter is and in this respect it is a great shame there are no films of Harry Greb, however his record suggests he is in the top three middleweights of all time. Stanley Ketchel I am unsure about. The films I have seen of him have not impressed but then film making was in its infancy in those days and the equipment was not always up to the job. His record certainly indicates he is top ten material. Mickey Walker..............WOW, what a fighter!! If anyone lives up to their nickname (Toy Bulldog) it is him. There are so many more to mention in this division as it is chock full of talent. Another thing about Hopkins is if you look at his defences that have gone to points he almost always wins 10 or 11 of the rounds. Perhaps Bert Sugar can put his cigar back in his mouth now!! Peace and respect to you all.