Undrafted Free Agents and Arbitration

bulldog55 · 12-17-2003, 04:01 AM

Ok, I have a pretty sticky issue to ask about here.

I commish a fictional league at BBSC. To make the league more interesting, I brought 8 Major Leaguers into the league as free agents. I have guys like Todd Van Poppel, Tyler Green, Drew Henson and other guys who were supposed to be big stars but fizzled out.

One of the guys is Josh Hamilton, and the story behind him is that he couldn't handle the emotional pressure of the Majors and so he left for our smaller-profile league. I made him THE best player in the league and so naturally interest in him is through the roof.

One of the owners told me that he planned to offer Hamilton a ridiculous amount of money for one year because he could re-sign him in arbitration the next season. Apparently if you create a free agent and sign him to a one-year deal, he becomes arbitration eligible the next season.

I need to make a ruling on whether this will be allowed and so I need to know if this is an actual MLB rule or if it's a bug in the game. What is the rule for signing undrafted free agents to Major League contracts? Does a rule even exist? We're talking a marquee player who for some reason does not get drafted and then gets signed to a lucrative Major League deal.

The closest example I can think of is foreign players coming over to MLB, but they are given long-term contracts. What are the technical rules for arbitration? Does arbitration even apply if you're signed as a free agent, or does it require you first coming up through a minor league deal?

Help is much appreciated.

joncarlos · 12-17-2003, 08:50 AM

This did happen to me in my league. I actually think the guy will have 5 years of arbitration eligibility! You might be able to edit his 'experience' to fix it, I'm not sure.

I Am The Game · 12-17-2003, 02:58 PM

Well, his first three years of playing major league ball are at the minmum, and the next three years are at his arbitration demands. Now, I have not seen a player take a pay cut in arbitration - but if Hamilton doesn't have any experiance he's just going to be the minimum next year as far as I know, although I've never actually tested this.

You could just say "Hamilton will sign the best BID, and bid doesn't always mean highest dollars". A player would much rather sign a 5 Year, $50Million contract rather then a 1 Year, $15Million Dollar contract.

And just bring it to an outside party (or two or three) in order to decide the "Best bid".

Because as far as I know, there is no rule for signing undrafted Free Agents, except they need to be at least 16 years of age. But the thing is, a guy who's good coming from another league (Ichiro, H.Matsui, Nomo, K.Matsui) won't accept a one year deal because he wants security.

GoBraves241 · 12-17-2003, 04:32 PM

I don't think you guys understand. What we need to know is are you suppose to beable to resign a guy through arbitration after one year of playing time? Or is it a game flaw?

It's impossible to find the MLB rules on this either.

I Am The Game · 12-17-2003, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GoBraves241
I don't think you guys understand. What we need to know is are you suppose to beable to resign a guy through arbitration after one year of playing time? Or is it a game flaw?

It's impossible to find the MLB rules on this either.

He may PLAN to re-sign him via arbitration after just one year of experiance (if that's what he has, assuming he has 0 experiance in the game) - but he'd just be re-signed to a 300k contract for his second year of playing time.

GoBraves241 · 12-17-2003, 04:41 PM

Say he gets signed to a 1 year 15 million dollar contract. It then shows in the salary report the arbitration estimate is 10 million. It doesn't do an automatic resign. Those are for players that come through your system. Not someone signed as a free agent.

I Am The Game · 12-17-2003, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GoBraves241
Say he gets signed to a 1 year 15 million dollar contract. It then shows in the salary report the arbitration estimate is 10 million. It doesn't do an automatic resign. Those are for players that come through your system. Not someone signed as a free agent.

As far as I know at least...that is untrue because the game only goes by experiance not how players are signed. Which means he essentially has more experiance (he was created with it, that happens) then meets the eye. In which case, his arbitration estimate may be 10, but as far as I know he'd get 15. Like I said I've never seen anyone get a paycut. Why don't you run a test sim about it though? Just run a season, and see what he gets the next season. Then you'll know for sure with that player specifically.

I will point to Ichiro. Signed as a Free Agent, yet this year he is arbitration eligible (but wants to avoid it and will sign another three year deal most likely).

GoBraves241 · 12-17-2003, 04:47 PM

He will get resigned for less. I've never seen OOTP give arbitration much over 10 million either.

I Am The Game · 12-17-2003, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GoBraves241
He will get resigned for less. I've never seen OOTP give arbitration much over 10 million either.

Me either, but then again I've never seen anyone with a $15Million salary go through arbitration. Just out of curiosity, what did Hamilton receive in arbitration?

But I don't really see what the issue is. Just don't allow a 1 year, $15Mil contract to be accepted by Hamilton if someone else is offering a long term deal.

hefalumps · 12-17-2003, 05:29 PM

I'd be very interested to hear the results of this if someone sims through it. What would happen in the following scenarios? A player with no experience that is a FA is:

1) Signed to a one year deal worth X amount of dollars - sim through a season and see what he gets in year two (tests automatic resign)
2) Signed to a four year deal worth X amount of dollars - sim four years and see what happens in year five (tests arbitration)

If someone does something like this, please post it here!

Thanks...

Skipaway · 12-17-2003, 10:25 PM

In real life, the paycut in arbitration can't be more than 20%, and the team would own the player's right for the first six years. I don't know how exactly OOTP5 works, but I'm sure Josh Hamilton will still be very expensive in the second year.

If it's in real life, his salary would be 15mil in 1st, 12mil in 2nd. Of course, teams would just non-tender him instead of giving him 12mil.

bulldog55 · 12-18-2003, 12:52 AM

***BREAKING NEWS***

I ran a test with Hamilton on a one-year contract and he was awarded arbitration for the same amount he signed for. I don't know if that means the game will not give someone a pay cut in arbitration or if Hamilton was just being awarded for having a Teddy Ballgame-esque season, but that's the verdict.

He's once again arbitration eligible the following season so I'm going to sim through this next season as well to see what happens after that.

I Am The Game · 12-18-2003, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bulldog55
***BREAKING NEWS***

I ran a test with Hamilton on a one-year contract and he was awarded arbitration for the same amount he signed for. I don't know if that means the game will not give someone a pay cut in arbitration or if Hamilton was just being awarded for having a Teddy Ballgame-esque season, but that's the verdict.

He's once again arbitration eligible the following season so I'm going to sim through this next season as well to see what happens after that.

Well you can always try it again except tone down his ratings. I'm interested to see if I was right like I thought or it was just because, like you said, he had a great season.

bulldog55 · 12-18-2003, 01:02 AM

Hamilton was given the exact same contract again in season 3, and he is once again arbitration eligible.

I guess I'll just keep simming and see what happens.

PS: Markus and Steve, this is why I need to be a beta tester. With all the leagues I'm involved in and commish, I come up with the most bizarre situations that nobody else would ever encounter and more often than not stump the OOTP staff.

bulldog55 · 12-18-2003, 01:12 AM

Alright, I turned Hamilton's ratings way down for season 3 and he hit .259 with 19 homeruns... and still cashed in the same paycheck in season 4. And once again, he's arbitration eligible for season 5.

I Am The Game · 12-18-2003, 01:13 AM

Yea that's what I thought would happen.

bulldog55 · 12-18-2003, 01:20 AM

His contract finally ran out after season 5. I'm assuming he was a "super two" player and thus only received 5 years of automatic renewal. But he was always awarded the same contract even though his production severely dropped off after the first few seasons.

I Am The Game · 12-18-2003, 01:36 AM

In that case, let the owner think he's being slick in giving him a unreal one-year contract

He'll find out he's being loaded into a 5 year deal when it comes to it.

bulldog55 · 12-18-2003, 01:52 AM

Well, I'm soft, so I went ahead and told him.

Skipaway · 12-18-2003, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by I Am The Game
In that case, let the owner think he's being slick in giving him a unreal one-year contract He'll find out he's being loaded into a 5 year deal when it comes to it.

That is not true. He can always release a arbitration-eligible player at the end of the season without paying any more salary. It's like having team options for five years.

12-17-2003, 04:01 AM	#1
bulldog55 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: California's Canada Warnings: 17 Posts: 2,479	Undrafted Free Agents and Arbitration Ok, I have a pretty sticky issue to ask about here. I commish a fictional league at BBSC. To make the league more interesting, I brought 8 Major Leaguers into the league as free agents. I have guys like Todd Van Poppel, Tyler Green, Drew Henson and other guys who were supposed to be big stars but fizzled out. One of the guys is Josh Hamilton, and the story behind him is that he couldn't handle the emotional pressure of the Majors and so he left for our smaller-profile league. I made him THE best player in the league and so naturally interest in him is through the roof. One of the owners told me that he planned to offer Hamilton a ridiculous amount of money for one year because he could re-sign him in arbitration the next season. Apparently if you create a free agent and sign him to a one-year deal, he becomes arbitration eligible the next season. I need to make a ruling on whether this will be allowed and so I need to know if this is an actual MLB rule or if it's a bug in the game. What is the rule for signing undrafted free agents to Major League contracts? Does a rule even exist? We're talking a marquee player who for some reason does not get drafted and then gets signed to a lucrative Major League deal. The closest example I can think of is foreign players coming over to MLB, but they are given long-term contracts. What are the technical rules for arbitration? Does arbitration even apply if you're signed as a free agent, or does it require you first coming up through a minor league deal? Help is much appreciated. __________________ Commissioner, Trans-Continental Base Ball Association Owner/GM, Los Angeles Electrics (TCBA), Beaverton Rangers (OTBL), Portland Mavericks (Union League), and Los Angeles Superbas (Century League) Being smart, don't always make you popular.

12-17-2003, 08:50 AM	#2
joncarlos All Star Reserve Join Date: May 2003 Location: Pittsburgh PA Posts: 693	This did happen to me in my league. I actually think the guy will have 5 years of arbitration eligibility! You might be able to edit his 'experience' to fix it, I'm not sure. __________________ <a href =http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35167> 2003 Pirates Regular Season </a> <a href=http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40941> 2003 Pirates playoffs and off-season </a> <a href=http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=44242> 2004 Pirates Season </a> <a href=http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47658> 2004 Pirates Playoffs and Off-season </a> <a href=http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48039>2005 Pirates Regular Season </a>

12-17-2003, 02:58 PM	#3
I Am The Game All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Red Sox Nation Posts: 691	Well, his first three years of playing major league ball are at the minmum, and the next three years are at his arbitration demands. Now, I have not seen a player take a pay cut in arbitration - but if Hamilton doesn't have any experiance he's just going to be the minimum next year as far as I know, although I've never actually tested this. You could just say "Hamilton will sign the best BID, and bid doesn't always mean highest dollars". A player would much rather sign a 5 Year, $50Million contract rather then a 1 Year, $15Million Dollar contract. And just bring it to an outside party (or two or three) in order to decide the "Best bid". Because as far as I know, there is no rule for signing undrafted Free Agents, except they need to be at least 16 years of age. But the thing is, a guy who's good coming from another league (Ichiro, H.Matsui, Nomo, K.Matsui) won't accept a one year deal because he wants security. Last edited by I Am The Game; 12-17-2003 at 03:03 PM.

12-17-2003, 04:32 PM	#4
GoBraves241 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 55	I don't think you guys understand. What we need to know is are you suppose to beable to resign a guy through arbitration after one year of playing time? Or is it a game flaw? It's impossible to find the MLB rules on this either. __________________ Ryan

12-17-2003, 04:41 PM	#6
GoBraves241 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 55	Say he gets signed to a 1 year 15 million dollar contract. It then shows in the salary report the arbitration estimate is 10 million. It doesn't do an automatic resign. Those are for players that come through your system. Not someone signed as a free agent. __________________ Ryan

12-17-2003, 04:47 PM	#8
GoBraves241 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 55	He will get resigned for less. I've never seen OOTP give arbitration much over 10 million either. __________________ Ryan

12-17-2003, 05:29 PM	#10
hefalumps All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,380	I'd be very interested to hear the results of this if someone sims through it. What would happen in the following scenarios? A player with no experience that is a FA is: 1) Signed to a one year deal worth X amount of dollars - sim through a season and see what he gets in year two (tests automatic resign) 2) Signed to a four year deal worth X amount of dollars - sim four years and see what happens in year five (tests arbitration) If someone does something like this, please post it here! Thanks...

12-17-2003, 10:25 PM	#11
Skipaway Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Where you live Posts: 11,017	In real life, the paycut in arbitration can't be more than 20%, and the team would own the player's right for the first six years. I don't know how exactly OOTP5 works, but I'm sure Josh Hamilton will still be very expensive in the second year. If it's in real life, his salary would be 15mil in 1st, 12mil in 2nd. Of course, teams would just non-tender him instead of giving him 12mil. __________________ Jonathan Haidt: Moral reasoning is really just a servant masquerading as a high priest.

12-18-2003, 12:52 AM	#12
bulldog55 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: California's Canada Warnings: 17 Posts: 2,479	*BREAKING NEWS* I ran a test with Hamilton on a one-year contract and he was awarded arbitration for the same amount he signed for. I don't know if that means the game will not give someone a pay cut in arbitration or if Hamilton was just being awarded for having a Teddy Ballgame-esque season, but that's the verdict. He's once again arbitration eligible the following season so I'm going to sim through this next season as well to see what happens after that. __________________ Commissioner, Trans-Continental Base Ball Association Owner/GM, Los Angeles Electrics (TCBA), Beaverton Rangers (OTBL), Portland Mavericks (Union League), and Los Angeles Superbas (Century League) Being smart, don't always make you popular.

12-18-2003, 01:02 AM	#14
bulldog55 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: California's Canada Warnings: 17 Posts: 2,479	Hamilton was given the exact same contract again in season 3, and he is once again arbitration eligible. I guess I'll just keep simming and see what happens. PS: Markus and Steve, this is why I need to be a beta tester. With all the leagues I'm involved in and commish, I come up with the most bizarre situations that nobody else would ever encounter and more often than not stump the OOTP staff. __________________ Commissioner, Trans-Continental Base Ball Association Owner/GM, Los Angeles Electrics (TCBA), Beaverton Rangers (OTBL), Portland Mavericks (Union League), and Los Angeles Superbas (Century League) Being smart, don't always make you popular.

12-18-2003, 01:12 AM	#15
bulldog55 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: California's Canada Warnings: 17 Posts: 2,479	Alright, I turned Hamilton's ratings way down for season 3 and he hit .259 with 19 homeruns... and still cashed in the same paycheck in season 4. And once again, he's arbitration eligible for season 5. __________________ Commissioner, Trans-Continental Base Ball Association Owner/GM, Los Angeles Electrics (TCBA), Beaverton Rangers (OTBL), Portland Mavericks (Union League), and Los Angeles Superbas (Century League) Being smart, don't always make you popular.

12-18-2003, 01:13 AM	#16
I Am The Game All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Red Sox Nation Posts: 691	Yea that's what I thought would happen.

12-18-2003, 01:20 AM	#17
bulldog55 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: California's Canada Warnings: 17 Posts: 2,479	His contract finally ran out after season 5. I'm assuming he was a "super two" player and thus only received 5 years of automatic renewal. But he was always awarded the same contract even though his production severely dropped off after the first few seasons. __________________ Commissioner, Trans-Continental Base Ball Association Owner/GM, Los Angeles Electrics (TCBA), Beaverton Rangers (OTBL), Portland Mavericks (Union League), and Los Angeles Superbas (Century League) Being smart, don't always make you popular.

12-18-2003, 01:36 AM	#18
I Am The Game All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Red Sox Nation Posts: 691	In that case, let the owner think he's being slick in giving him a unreal one-year contract He'll find out he's being loaded into a 5 year deal when it comes to it.

12-18-2003, 01:52 AM	#19
bulldog55 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: California's Canada Warnings: 17 Posts: 2,479	Well, I'm soft, so I went ahead and told him. __________________ Commissioner, Trans-Continental Base Ball Association Owner/GM, Los Angeles Electrics (TCBA), Beaverton Rangers (OTBL), Portland Mavericks (Union League), and Los Angeles Superbas (Century League) Being smart, don't always make you popular.