Too many minor league contract extensions

CDL Commish · 10-11-2003, 10:20 PM

For some reason there seem to be many more veterens signing minor league extensions with the latest patch. Obviously the following examples aren't great players however they would certainly be able to get a contract offer for in excess of $1 million a year or so. Here are a couple examples of players who signed minor league extensions...

Ed Vande Berg is a decent MR rated at 2.5 stars.

Bob Brenly isn't a great catcher but is worth more than a veteren with a minor league contract. Also, there is always a premium for catchers since a good one is usually hard to come by.

Dave Sax is a very good hitting catcher who has a lifetime .305 average. His first opportunity at free agency is curtailed when he signs a minor league extension.

Victor Mata is a guy you wouldn't want in the field to save your life however he can hit and that in itself is worth something.

So these are just a couple examples. All four of these players are guys that are solid veteren contributers, not career veteren minor leaguers. I really think they should be paid more than what they're signing for. Anyone else experience this at all?

Skipaway · 10-12-2003, 05:09 AM

What's wrong with 2 star players signing minor league contracts?

CDL Commish · 10-12-2003, 09:45 AM

It's not realistic unless that player has spent most of his career in the minors. 2 stars would insinuate the player is just below average versus the rest of the MRs in the league. Just below average is still worth alot more than the $300,000 automatic minor league contract.

ThruBeingCool913 · 10-12-2003, 11:01 AM

Maybe a guy really wants to stay in the organization that he is in, and is willing to work his way back to the bigs if he has to.

Ervinmagicsmall · 10-12-2003, 11:03 AM

The game seems to produce a little too many middle relievers (there's always some average/slightly below average MR in the free agent pool throughout the season), so it doesn't shock me that 2star rated MR would get minor league deals.

Cowboys3356 · 10-12-2003, 11:03 AM

That is a known bug in the game. I just get around it by not offering ANY contract extensions for the first couple of months of the season. After that very few guys will accept a minor league extension and if they do then it is just up to you whether you feel that it is a realistic move.

CDL Commish · 10-12-2003, 12:35 PM

Another issue has come up. We are currently in the free agency portion of the preseason. Roger Clemens specifies that he would like a contract for $5.26 mill over 5 years. Upon offering Clemens this contract the negotiation window closes. When going back into that window, the game says he prefers an offer from Pittsburgh which is the team he's on. Apparantly the contract extension logic is getting confused with the free agency logic. This is obviously a significant issue.

CDL Commish · 10-12-2003, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CDL Commish
Another issue has come up. We are currently in the free agency portion of the preseason. Roger Clemens specifies that he would like a contract for $5.26 mill over 5 years. Upon offering Clemens this contract the negotiation window closes. When going back into that window, the game says he prefers an offer from Pittsburgh which is the team he's on. Apparantly the contract extension logic is getting confused with the free agency logic. This is obviously a significant issue.

To clarify, Clemens is not a free agent. He is in his final contract year with the Pirates.

Killebrew · 10-12-2003, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CDL Commish
Another issue has come up. We are currently in the free agency portion of the preseason. Roger Clemens specifies that he would like a contract for $5.26 mill over 5 years. Upon offering Clemens this contract the negotiation window closes. When going back into that window, the game says he prefers an offer from Pittsburgh which is the team he's on. Apparantly the contract extension logic is getting confused with the free agency logic. This is obviously a significant issue.

I agree that is significant, I hope the games failed logic corrects itself after free agency is completed. A temporary fix for your league would be to go back to the previous version of OOTP5 until that is resolved.

About the amount of minsal contract extensions - also a problem, though less pressing than this free agency/extensions bug.

Cowboys3356 · 10-12-2003, 06:44 PM

This can be avoided by not offering extensions until a couple months into the season. Most online leagues I have been in usually have a rule about when you can offer extensions to avoid these listed problems.

These are all known bugs and hopefully will be resolved in the future but are easily avoided by controlling when extensions are allowed.

Skipaway · 10-12-2003, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CDL Commish
It's not realistic unless that player has spent most of his career in the minors. 2 stars would insinuate the player is just below average versus the rest of the MRs in the league. Just below average is still worth alot more than the $300,000 automatic minor league contract.

Check out studies like this:
http://149.43.80.142/cs100homeS02/sf.../ExcelTOC.html

You'll see how low the salary of a below average player would be. The salary structure in MLB is heavily favoring those above average. And we all know that a two star player is just a fringe MLB player, because all one star players should be in the minors. Remember, when you said "below average in the league", it's not equal to "below average in MLB". It is "far below average in MLB".

And I don't know why would you think it's not realistic for a player with major league experience to accept minor league deals. Some examples from this year: Robert Person, Tony Clark, Donovan Osborne, Ron Gant, Rick Helling, B.J. Surhoff, Jay Bell, David Cone, Carlos Baerga, John Valentin, Esteban Loaiza(!), Brian Daubach, Gil Heredia, Ron Coomer, Eddie Perez, John Vander Wal, Damon Buford, Juan Acevedo, Graeme Lloyd, Pat Mahomes, Alex Ochoa, Ruben Rivera.................. All of them accept a minor league contract before spring training this year.

How different are your examples from these bunch of guys?

CDL Commish · 10-13-2003, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipaway
And I don't know why would you think it's not realistic for a player with major league experience to accept minor league deals. Some examples from this year: Robert Person, Tony Clark, Donovan Osborne, Ron Gant, Rick Helling, B.J. Surhoff, Jay Bell, David Cone, Carlos Baerga, John Valentin, Esteban Loaiza(!), Brian Daubach, Gil Heredia, Ron Coomer, Eddie Perez, John Vander Wal, Damon Buford, Juan Acevedo, Graeme Lloyd, Pat Mahomes, Alex Ochoa, Ruben Rivera.................. All of them accept a minor league contract before spring training this year.

Ok, if I'm not mistaken those players still signed for veteren minimums. Therefore they are certain to be making at least $800k for their one year deals. That's a large difference from a minor league $300k automatic contract. Also, for your list of 20 odd players I should be able to list out twice as many players who are way overpaid and are below average to average players. It works both ways and in the wash I think you have an average contract well higher than $300k.

But really this is all a moot point. The bigger issue here is that these players are accepting deals they would accept if they were in the free agency class. Therefore the game is confusing the preseason extension logic with the free agency logic. This will be further evidenced if upon proceeding to the regular season, these players are requesting different extensions. Definately an issue.

sporr · 10-13-2003, 01:53 PM

Were these guys actually in the minors at the time the extension was offered?

CDL Commish · 10-13-2003, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sporr
Were these guys actually in the minors at the time the extension was offered?

Three were at the big league level and one was on the DL.

LivnLegend · 10-13-2003, 06:37 PM

Prior to 5.13 in the USBA I noticed several quality players willing to accept minor league extensions in the first month. I decided to not allow extensions until the second month. At that point many of those players were requesting "normal" dollar amount extensions.

Skipaway · 10-13-2003, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CDL Commish
Ok, if I'm not mistaken those players still signed for veteren minimums. Therefore they are certain to be making at least $800k for their one year deals. That's a large difference from a minor league $300k automatic contract. Also, for your list of 20 odd players I should be able to list out twice as many players who are way overpaid and are below average to average players. It works both ways and in the wash I think you have an average contract well higher than $300k.

But really this is all a moot point. The bigger issue here is that these players are accepting deals they would accept if they were in the free agency class. Therefore the game is confusing the preseason extension logic with the free agency logic. This will be further evidenced if upon proceeding to the regular season, these players are requesting different extensions. Definately an issue.

Players accepting minor league contracts would sure get major league minimum money if they got promoted. If they didn't get a roster spot in the majors, they'll only have that minor league contract. Veteren minimum is not featured in OOTP, so OOTP would just give out $300,000 no matter what. It'd be nice if OOTP add this feature, and probably enough to solve your problems.

I don't see how overpaid average players would disprove the fact veterans accepting minor league contracts is wrong. A two star player is usually the 15th~23th best player on a 25 man roster, depending on how good the team is. And it is a fact players of that caliber are often easily replaceable and worth very little. In real life, teams would only use young players or cheap veterans for those roles. Don't tell me Phillies forecasted Bell to be their 18th best player when they gave him that contract.

And I am confused by this "preseason logic" and "free agency logic" thing. What do you mean by that? I think there should only be one logic for all contracts, because that's the way a good market should operate. Players must have some sense of free agency market to sign extensions. And it should not suprise anyone that the extension money is about the same as what one asked for in the free agency.

bulldog55 · 12-07-2003, 06:16 PM

The problem is that players are accepting these extensions before their free agent year has even been played out. Sure a lot of veterans take minor league deals but it's usually after an offseason of testing the market and getting no offers. I couldn't imagine a veteran player taking a minor league contract extension in the preseason of his free agent year.

obaslg · 12-07-2003, 08:33 PM

I just signed five veterans, three of whom are on the ML roster, to minor league extensions. For three of them, it's the second year in a row I've done this, and all three were on the ML roster when I did it last year. As I recall, in all cases the extensions were done before any games were played. I don't think I've ever seen a player on the ML roster willing to take a minor league extension after games have been played.

None of these players was more than two stars, but they all had ML stats last year, from 15-50 games started each. Three of them have been on my ML roster for years (in a platoon or backing up).

In reality, fringe players, especially those making a comeback, sometimes accept minor league deals as free agents. It doesn't make any sense to me that a player would accept a minor league extension when he's currently playing in the majors - why not just go to FA?

I think it's just a bug.

Skipaway · 12-07-2003, 09:04 PM

Perhaps we could agree on these:
1. Nobody should agree to minor league contract extensions early in the season.
2. When a veteran signed to a minor league contract, they should get a veteran minimum instead of league minimum when they did make the major league roster.

Of course, players having no idea about their potential free agent values was always a problem.

sporr · 12-08-2003, 11:39 AM

I wouldn't be surprised if this is one of the areas that Markus recodes for OOTP6.

10-11-2003, 10:20 PM	#1
CDL Commish Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Eau Claire, WI Posts: 140	Too many minor league contract extensions For some reason there seem to be many more veterens signing minor league extensions with the latest patch. Obviously the following examples aren't great players however they would certainly be able to get a contract offer for in excess of $1 million a year or so. Here are a couple examples of players who signed minor league extensions... Ed Vande Berg is a decent MR rated at 2.5 stars. Bob Brenly isn't a great catcher but is worth more than a veteren with a minor league contract. Also, there is always a premium for catchers since a good one is usually hard to come by. Dave Sax is a very good hitting catcher who has a lifetime .305 average. His first opportunity at free agency is curtailed when he signs a minor league extension. Victor Mata is a guy you wouldn't want in the field to save your life however he can hit and that in itself is worth something. So these are just a couple examples. All four of these players are guys that are solid veteren contributers, not career veteren minor leaguers. I really think they should be paid more than what they're signing for. Anyone else experience this at all? __________________ Matt Skutley CDL Commish \| Brewers GM TBA!!!!!!\| Braves GM Last edited by CDL Commish; 10-11-2003 at 10:27 PM.

10-12-2003, 05:09 AM	#2
Skipaway Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Where you live Posts: 11,017	What's wrong with 2 star players signing minor league contracts? __________________ Jonathan Haidt: Moral reasoning is really just a servant masquerading as a high priest.

10-12-2003, 09:45 AM	#3
CDL Commish Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Eau Claire, WI Posts: 140	It's not realistic unless that player has spent most of his career in the minors. 2 stars would insinuate the player is just below average versus the rest of the MRs in the league. Just below average is still worth alot more than the $300,000 automatic minor league contract. __________________ Matt Skutley CDL Commish \| Brewers GM TBA!!!!!!\| Braves GM

10-12-2003, 12:35 PM	#7
CDL Commish Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Eau Claire, WI Posts: 140	Another issue has come up. We are currently in the free agency portion of the preseason. Roger Clemens specifies that he would like a contract for $5.26 mill over 5 years. Upon offering Clemens this contract the negotiation window closes. When going back into that window, the game says he prefers an offer from Pittsburgh which is the team he's on. Apparantly the contract extension logic is getting confused with the free agency logic. This is obviously a significant issue. __________________ Matt Skutley CDL Commish \| Brewers GM TBA!!!!!!\| Braves GM

10-13-2003, 06:37 PM	#15
LivnLegend Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: 100% pure adrenaline! Posts: 5,624	Prior to 5.13 in the USBA I noticed several quality players willing to accept minor league extensions in the first month. I decided to not allow extensions until the second month. At that point many of those players were requesting "normal" dollar amount extensions. __________________ Excess ain't rebellion. You're drinking what they're selling.

10-12-2003, 11:01 AM	#4
ThruBeingCool913 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Winter Springs, FL Posts: 113	Maybe a guy really wants to stay in the organization that he is in, and is willing to work his way back to the bigs if he has to.

10-12-2003, 11:03 AM	#5
Ervinmagicsmall Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Illinoiz Posts: 67	The game seems to produce a little too many middle relievers (there's always some average/slightly below average MR in the free agent pool throughout the season), so it doesn't shock me that 2star rated MR would get minor league deals.

10-12-2003, 11:03 AM	#6
Cowboys3356 All Star Starter Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,571	That is a known bug in the game. I just get around it by not offering ANY contract extensions for the first couple of months of the season. After that very few guys will accept a minor league extension and if they do then it is just up to you whether you feel that it is a realistic move.

10-12-2003, 06:44 PM	#10
Cowboys3356 All Star Starter Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,571	This can be avoided by not offering extensions until a couple months into the season. Most online leagues I have been in usually have a rule about when you can offer extensions to avoid these listed problems. These are all known bugs and hopefully will be resolved in the future but are easily avoided by controlling when extensions are allowed.

10-13-2003, 01:53 PM	#13
sporr Global Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Muscatine, IA Posts: 8,277	Were these guys actually in the minors at the time the extension was offered?

12-07-2003, 06:16 PM	#17
bulldog55 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: California's Canada Warnings: 17 Posts: 2,481	The problem is that players are accepting these extensions before their free agent year has even been played out. Sure a lot of veterans take minor league deals but it's usually after an offseason of testing the market and getting no offers. I couldn't imagine a veteran player taking a minor league contract extension in the preseason of his free agent year. __________________ Commissioner, Trans-Continental Base Ball Association Owner/GM, Los Angeles Electrics (TCBA), Beaverton Rangers (OTBL), Portland Mavericks (Union League), and Los Angeles Superbas (Century League) Being smart, don't always make you popular.

12-07-2003, 08:33 PM	#18
obaslg All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 887	I just signed five veterans, three of whom are on the ML roster, to minor league extensions. For three of them, it's the second year in a row I've done this, and all three were on the ML roster when I did it last year. As I recall, in all cases the extensions were done before any games were played. I don't think I've ever seen a player on the ML roster willing to take a minor league extension after games have been played. None of these players was more than two stars, but they all had ML stats last year, from 15-50 games started each. Three of them have been on my ML roster for years (in a platoon or backing up). In reality, fringe players, especially those making a comeback, sometimes accept minor league deals as free agents. It doesn't make any sense to me that a player would accept a minor league extension when he's currently playing in the majors - why not just go to FA? I think it's just a bug. __________________ Realy good musition of many insterments, including the hyperbolic vitriol.

12-07-2003, 09:04 PM	#19
Skipaway Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Where you live Posts: 11,017	Perhaps we could agree on these: 1. Nobody should agree to minor league contract extensions early in the season. 2. When a veteran signed to a minor league contract, they should get a veteran minimum instead of league minimum when they did make the major league roster. Of course, players having no idea about their potential free agent values was always a problem. __________________ Jonathan Haidt: Moral reasoning is really just a servant masquerading as a high priest.

12-08-2003, 11:39 AM	#20
sporr Global Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Muscatine, IA Posts: 8,277	I wouldn't be surprised if this is one of the areas that Markus recodes for OOTP6.