ROY's Who Shouldn't Have Been

GForce22 · 12-03-2003, 11:07 PM

Just figured I would open this up as a topic. As I still tinker around with my All-Time Roster Project, I was looking at Mitchell Page. His rookie year (1977) was SIGNIFICANTLY better than the guy who won ROY...Eddie Murray.

Are there other cases of this that jump out in anyone's mind?

Just a topic...we'll see if it falls flat

GH

crackpott · 12-03-2003, 11:08 PM

Dontrelle Willis.

GForce22 · 12-03-2003, 11:11 PM

Agreed.

GH

jaxmagicman · 12-03-2003, 11:22 PM

Walt Wiess

Draft Dodger · 12-03-2003, 11:25 PM

you know, I can at least picture the reasoning behind voting for Murray...but 4 people gave their 1st place vote to Bump Wills instead of Page, and that race is even more lopsided in Page's favor.

both Murray and Page were 3rd round picks in the 1973 draft, btw.

Draft Dodger · 12-03-2003, 11:31 PM

here's one:

1989 NL Jerome Walton over Dwight Smith

GForce22 · 12-03-2003, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Draft Dodger
here's one:

1989 NL Jerome Walton over Dwight Smith

That's a great one. Can someone explain the possible reasoing there to me...# of ABs maybe? Anyone from Chicago, was Walton thought of that much better than Smith locally? Was he hyped more? Curious how these happen.

GH

Draft Dodger · 12-03-2003, 11:55 PM

I seem to recall that Walton had a pretty lengthy hitting streak...
(just looked it up - 30 games).

not that that should have anything to do with a ROY.

Draft Dodger · 12-04-2003, 12:01 AM

here's another one that should have been closer:

1992 AL
Pat Listach over Kenny Lofton.

really very similar stats, except strikeouts where Listach doubles Lofton's numbers. Maybe Listach got more credit for being a shortstop (not that his defensive numbers were special).

Listach got 3 times the first place votes that Lofton did.

Skipaway · 12-04-2003, 12:13 AM

Bill James did this topic in Win Shares. He covered it from the begining up to 1995. By his numbers, these are what should have been:

(I only listed those with more than 3 win shares apart)

1995 Chipper Jones over Hideo Nomo
1988 Roberto Alomar over Chris Sabo
1983 Bill Doran over Darryl Strawberry
1980 Doug Corbett over Joe Charboneau
1978 Ozzie Smith over Bob Horner
1977 Mitchell Page over Eddie Murray
1971 Bill Parsons over Chris Chambliss
1970 Billy Grabarkewitz over Carl Morton
1969 Ken Tatum over Lou Piniella
1966 Sonny Jackson over Tommy Helms
1965 Joe Morgan over Jim Lefebvre
1962 Tom Haller over Ken Hubbs
1961 Dick Howser over Don Schwall
1957 Ed Bouchee over Jack Sanford
1954 Jim Finigan over Bob Grim
1949 Mike Garcia over Roy Sievers

Skipaway · 12-04-2003, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GForce22
That's a great one. Can someone explain the possible reasoing there to me...# of ABs maybe? Anyone from Chicago, was Walton thought of that much better than Smith locally? Was he hyped more? Curious how these happen.

GH

If you asked Bill James, the real ROY should have been his personal favorite: Craig Biggio.

Win Shares:

Biggio 18
Walton 17
Smith 16

LivnLegend · 12-04-2003, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipaway
1995 Chipper Jones over Hideo Nomo

This is one that came to mind for me. I remember it because the Dodgers had already won 3 in a row with Karros, Piazza, and Mondesi. I'm guessing that had a little to do with the outcome along with the mega-hype surrounding Nomo's splash upon the major league scene.

Jason Moyer · 12-04-2003, 12:40 AM

1988 ROY was a joke. I never understood the way everyone salivated over Chris Sabo.

Jason

Draft Dodger · 12-04-2003, 12:47 AM

it was the goggles.

ctorg · 12-04-2003, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaxmagicman
Walt Wiess

That's what I was thinking when I first saw the topic. Even at the time, I just couldn't see how a .250 average, no power at all, and slightly above average fielding at SS should earn someone a ROY. Better to give it to no one.

tim_uwrf · 12-04-2003, 01:16 PM

Hrbek over RIpken

Gastric ReFlux · 12-04-2003, 01:23 PM

Lots of times, ROYs are guys who get lots of media attention for some reason. With Walton, it was his good year along with the Cubs playing well that gained him a lot of attention. Chris Sabo had those funky glasses. It really is an award that has a big portion of media hype swaying the voters. Those who go from being unknown, their status before the rookie season, to known will get more votes. There are plenty of rookies who have solid years who just don't attract much attention and remain for the most part unknown.

ctorg · 12-04-2003, 01:27 PM

Jerome Walton, to be fair, did set the rookie record for hitting streak. He had a really amazing run.

Gastric ReFlux · 12-04-2003, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kaelcarp
Jerome Walton, to be fair, did set the rookie record for hitting streak. He had a really amazing run.

Yes he did, which garnered him a bunch of hype and media attention.

After that, it was all downhill.

ctorg · 12-04-2003, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gastric ReFlux
Yes he did, which garnered him a bunch of hype and media attention.

After that, it was all downhill.

No way, he was the Ross Gload of his day!

12-03-2003, 11:07 PM	#1
GForce22 Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 2,654	ROY's Who Shouldn't Have Been Just figured I would open this up as a topic. As I still tinker around with my All-Time Roster Project, I was looking at Mitchell Page. His rookie year (1977) was SIGNIFICANTLY better than the guy who won ROY...Eddie Murray. Are there other cases of this that jump out in anyone's mind? Just a topic...we'll see if it falls flat GH

12-03-2003, 11:08 PM	#2
crackpott Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 2,961	Dontrelle Willis. __________________ Abandoned Planet - Check it out. The photos don't suck anymore.

12-03-2003, 11:22 PM	#4
jaxmagicman Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Retired defloration-maker living in Myrtle Beach, SC Posts: 7,801	Walt Wiess __________________ See ID Major League Baseball trademarks and copyrights are used with permission of MLB Advanced Media, L.P. Minor League Baseball trademarks and copyrights are used with the permission of Minor League Baseball. All rights reserved.

12-03-2003, 11:25 PM	#5
Draft Dodger Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: formerly of the OTBL Posts: 4,113	you know, I can at least picture the reasoning behind voting for Murray...but 4 people gave their 1st place vote to Bump Wills instead of Page, and that race is even more lopsided in Page's favor. both Murray and Page were 3rd round picks in the 1973 draft, btw. __________________ Draft Dodger (Anarchy: Anything goes. The Draft Dodger viewpoint.) Sophmoric[sic] Member of the OOTP Boards (It's not OOTP; it's your computer) 15 GB Webhosting for $6.95 a month IMO we are best off abandoning that sinking ship that is Off Topic to the rats infesting it and just starting a whole new Baseball Forum from scratch.

12-03-2003, 11:31 PM	#6
Draft Dodger Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: formerly of the OTBL Posts: 4,113	here's one: 1989 NL Jerome Walton over Dwight Smith __________________ Draft Dodger (Anarchy: Anything goes. The Draft Dodger viewpoint.) Sophmoric[sic] Member of the OOTP Boards (It's not OOTP; it's your computer) 15 GB Webhosting for $6.95 a month IMO we are best off abandoning that sinking ship that is Off Topic to the rats infesting it and just starting a whole new Baseball Forum from scratch.

12-03-2003, 11:11 PM	#3
GForce22 Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 2,654	Agreed. GH

12-03-2003, 11:55 PM	#8
Draft Dodger Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: formerly of the OTBL Posts: 4,113	I seem to recall that Walton had a pretty lengthy hitting streak... (just looked it up - 30 games). not that that should have anything to do with a ROY. __________________ Draft Dodger (Anarchy: Anything goes. The Draft Dodger viewpoint.) Sophmoric[sic] Member of the OOTP Boards (It's not OOTP; it's your computer) 15 GB Webhosting for $6.95 a month IMO we are best off abandoning that sinking ship that is Off Topic to the rats infesting it and just starting a whole new Baseball Forum from scratch.

12-04-2003, 12:01 AM	#9
Draft Dodger Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: formerly of the OTBL Posts: 4,113	here's another one that should have been closer: 1992 AL Pat Listach over Kenny Lofton. really very similar stats, except strikeouts where Listach doubles Lofton's numbers. Maybe Listach got more credit for being a shortstop (not that his defensive numbers were special). Listach got 3 times the first place votes that Lofton did. __________________ Draft Dodger (Anarchy: Anything goes. The Draft Dodger viewpoint.) Sophmoric[sic] Member of the OOTP Boards (It's not OOTP; it's your computer) 15 GB Webhosting for $6.95 a month IMO we are best off abandoning that sinking ship that is Off Topic to the rats infesting it and just starting a whole new Baseball Forum from scratch.

12-04-2003, 12:13 AM	#10
Skipaway Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Where you live Posts: 11,017	Bill James did this topic in Win Shares. He covered it from the begining up to 1995. By his numbers, these are what should have been: (I only listed those with more than 3 win shares apart) 1995 Chipper Jones over Hideo Nomo 1988 Roberto Alomar over Chris Sabo 1983 Bill Doran over Darryl Strawberry 1980 Doug Corbett over Joe Charboneau 1978 Ozzie Smith over Bob Horner 1977 Mitchell Page over Eddie Murray 1971 Bill Parsons over Chris Chambliss 1970 Billy Grabarkewitz over Carl Morton 1969 Ken Tatum over Lou Piniella 1966 Sonny Jackson over Tommy Helms 1965 Joe Morgan over Jim Lefebvre 1962 Tom Haller over Ken Hubbs 1961 Dick Howser over Don Schwall 1957 Ed Bouchee over Jack Sanford 1954 Jim Finigan over Bob Grim 1949 Mike Garcia over Roy Sievers __________________ Jonathan Haidt: Moral reasoning is really just a servant masquerading as a high priest.

12-04-2003, 12:40 AM	#13
Jason Moyer Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 5,088	1988 ROY was a joke. I never understood the way everyone salivated over Chris Sabo. Jason __________________ "I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses." -- Tom House "I was very fortunate to have a pitching coach by the name of Tom House...Tom, I really miss those days that we spent in the weight room and out on the field working together." -- Nolan Ryan's HoF Induction Speech

12-04-2003, 12:47 AM	#14
Draft Dodger Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: formerly of the OTBL Posts: 4,113	it was the goggles. __________________ Draft Dodger (Anarchy: Anything goes. The Draft Dodger viewpoint.) Sophmoric[sic] Member of the OOTP Boards (It's not OOTP; it's your computer) 15 GB Webhosting for $6.95 a month IMO we are best off abandoning that sinking ship that is Off Topic to the rats infesting it and just starting a whole new Baseball Forum from scratch.

12-04-2003, 01:16 PM	#16
tim_uwrf Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Field of Dreams Posts: 1,998	Hrbek over RIpken

12-04-2003, 01:23 PM	#17
Gastric ReFlux Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Member #3409 Posts: 8,350	Lots of times, ROYs are guys who get lots of media attention for some reason. With Walton, it was his good year along with the Cubs playing well that gained him a lot of attention. Chris Sabo had those funky glasses. It really is an award that has a big portion of media hype swaying the voters. Those who go from being unknown, their status before the rookie season, to known will get more votes. There are plenty of rookies who have solid years who just don't attract much attention and remain for the most part unknown.

12-04-2003, 01:27 PM	#18
ctorg Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 9,848	Jerome Walton, to be fair, did set the rookie record for hitting streak. He had a really amazing run. __________________ My music "When the trees blow back and forth, that's what makes the wind." - Steven Wright Fjord emena pancreas thorax fornicate marmalade morpheme proteolysis smaxa cabana offal srue vitriol grope hallelujah lentils