The Ponson Deal- let me whine away some more, but explain why :D

Crapshoot · 07-31-2003, 05:47 PM

btw, just in case anyone thinks I havent whined enough, Im going to cry about the Ponson deal- but Im going to make an attempt to justify the whining.
Ponson's numbers are basically the same as Ainsworths, extrapolated over a period of almost double the starts. Ainsworth (3.82 ERA, 6.34 K/9, 1.65 K/BB)- Ponson (6.08 K/9, 2.33 K/BB, 3.77 ERA)- I realize Ainsworth is in PAc Bell as opposed to Camden Yards, and concede Ponson is a better pitcher, but 8 million dollars (expected free agent price) and 5 years cheap better ? More so, Moss had been pitching far better recently- why mess with a winning formula, by trading guys who are doing damn well ? And Hannerman is a high upside prospect- certainly a flameout possibility, but the kind of guy you throw in as a the bait on a big deal- not as a filler at the end, the way SF is doing it. Sabes got snookered by the win totals- bring back Thrift- we could have gotten Ponson for Bernard and Neifi...
Basically, I think this is a god-awful deal for the Giants- I understand the window of opportunity, but Ainsworth, Foppert, Williams etc were the bridge to the next generation (post Bonds)- now I shudder to think of the team in 3 years if this is the trend.

Vryllyn · 07-31-2003, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Aadik
btw, just in case anyone thinks I havent whined enough, Im going to cry about the Ponson deal- but Im going to make an attempt to justify the whining.
Ponson's numbers are basically the same as Ainsworths, extrapolated over a period of almost double the starts. Ainsworth (3.82 ERA, 6.34 K/9, 1.65 K/BB)- Ponson (6.08 K/9, 2.33 K/BB, 3.77 ERA)- I realize Ainsworth is in PAc Bell as opposed to Camden Yards, and concede Ponson is a better pitcher, but 8 million dollars (expected free agent price) and 5 years cheap better ? More so, Moss had been pitching far better recently- why mess with a winning formula, by trading guys who are doing damn well ? And Hannerman is a high upside prospect- certainly a flameout possibility, but the kind of guy you throw in as a the bait on a big deal- not as a filler at the end, the way SF is doing it. Sabes got snookered by the win totals- bring back Thrift- we could have gotten Ponson for Bernard and Neifi...
Basically, I think this is a god-awful deal for the Giants- I understand the window of opportunity, but Ainsworth, Foppert, Williams etc were the bridge to the next generation (post Bonds)- now I shudder to think of the team in 3 years if this is the trend.

Well, at least the good news is that we didn't trade Foppert & Williams. Ainsworth is still hurt, but Moss looked good Tuesday, except for that 3 run shot by Alou.

Ponson BETTER be good. I will flip out if he comes and loses five straight, while Moss wins five straight. This is total bull@#$%. Probably should have traded Neifi and Bernard. I just pray we resign Rich Aurilia.

Crapshoot · 07-31-2003, 06:26 PM

"Rob Neyer: ***UPDATE*** The Giants traded Kurt Ainsworth and Damian Moss to the Orioles for Sidney Ponson. Seems like a great deal for the Giants, who are loaded with young pitching prospects, but can use a veteran like Ponson when October rolls around. "

Is Neyer smoking crack- he's talking about veteran experience ?

Vryllyn · 07-31-2003, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Aadik
"Rob Neyer: ***UPDATE*** The Giants traded Kurt Ainsworth and Damian Moss to the Orioles for Sidney Ponson. Seems like a great deal for the Giants, who are loaded with young pitching prospects, but can use a veteran like Ponson when October rolls around. "

Is Neyer smoking crack- he's talking about veteran experience ?

Is Ponson actually considered a veteran??? He's had ONE good season! How is that worth three pitchers!?!

Neyer is probably is smoking crack then. Probably should be slapped a few times too.

Crapshoot · 07-31-2003, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vryllyn
Is Ponson actually considered a veteran??? He's had ONE good season! How is that worth three pitchers!?!

Neyer is probably is smoking crack then. Probably should be slapped a few times too.

'

you know- its nice having a fellow giants fan to bitch too- we understand each other.. usually, I have to primer for this..

Vryllyn · 07-31-2003, 06:43 PM

Man, I'm going to be bitchin' about this for a while. I was actually becoming a big fan of Moss.

Remember the days when the Giants had no pitching. Right after they released (or let go) of Bill Swift & John Burkett.

And us, Giants fans got to stick together.

Crapshoot · 07-31-2003, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vryllyn
Man, I'm going to be bitchin' about this for a while. I was actually becoming a big fan of Moss.

Remember the days when the Giants had no pitching. Right after they released (or let go) of Bill Swift & John Burkett.

oh man- I remember I was in SF for the summer when they lost 10 in a row, won one, then lost 7- those were brutal days. Hell, I remember when Matt Williams (big thumbs up to Sabes for that one) was traded- that was painful...

Vryllyn · 07-31-2003, 06:52 PM

Matt Williams & Will Clark were like my favorites growning up. Jeffery Leonard. Candy Malandano (SP). Kruk, Ted Robinson, etc.

But I don't miss Candlestick tho... Sabean, hopefully, will leave soon. Then maybe we can have a GM that's a little bit better, but he did bring the Giants, Jason Schmidt tho.

That was nice. If I remember correctly, it was for Armando Rios and someone else. I guess, I can kind of forgive him, but not entirely.

GForce22 · 07-31-2003, 06:58 PM

This sounds like the move of a GM about to skip town for the Mets job after this season

GH

Vryllyn · 07-31-2003, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GForce22
This sounds like the move of a GM about to skip town for the Mets job after this season

GH

In a way, I hope he does go. Maybe he can screw up the Mets too. Knowing him, he would cut Aurilia, so he get him as a Met before leaving.

*slaps self*

Okay, I feel better now.

Crapshoot · 07-31-2003, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GForce22
This sounds like the move of a GM about to skip town for the Mets job after this season

GH

he'a good gm- he just has the tendency to love the veterans a little too much at times. YOu always get the feeling that he'd give up a truckload of prospects for a good but not great player, just because he's proven- its a good thing I suppose sometimes, but its maddening to see your best youung talent dealt for above average players who aren't stars (Kent notwithstanding) or even all-star level, ever. I know prospects don't pan out, but in our dreams, Foppert, Williams, and Ainsworth head the NL west's best rotation (along with Schmdit and Bonser) in 2005..

matskralc · 07-31-2003, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vryllyn
Matt Williams & Will Clark were like my favorites growning up. Jeffery Leonard. Candy Malandano (SP). Kruk, Ted Robinson, etc.

But I don't miss Candlestick tho... Sabean, hopefully, will leave soon. Then maybe we can have a GM that's a little bit better, but he did bring the Giants, Jason Schmidt tho. That was nice. If I remember correctly, it was for Armando Rios and someone else. I guess, I can kind of forgive him, but not entirely.

That was Jason Schmidt and John Vander Wal for Armando Rios and Ryan Vogelsong before the 2001 deadline. Looked like a decent trade until Rios (who was basically a young Vander Wal clone) blew his knee out in his third game as a Pirate, and then Vogelsong (a much much cheaper Schmidt who still needed a year or two in the minors) went and blew his elbow out. The deal wasn't made so much by Sabean as it was made by the restrictions of the Pirates' payroll.

Vryllyn · 07-31-2003, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by matskralc
That was Jason Schmidt and John Vander Wal for Armando Rios and Ryan Vogelsong before the 2001 deadline. Looked like a decent trade until Rios (who was basically a young Vander Wal clone) blew his knee out in his third game as a Pirate, and then Vogelsong (a much much cheaper Schmidt who still needed a year or two in the minors) went and blew his elbow out. The deal wasn't made so much by Sabean as it was made by the restrictions of the Pirates' payroll.

Thanks, now I can give the credit to the Pirates, instead of Sabean.

matskralc · 07-31-2003, 07:15 PM

Yeah. Give us our credit when it's due, dammit. We can't do anything ELSE right on or off the field. The least you could do is applaud us for making other teams better.

Vryllyn · 07-31-2003, 07:54 PM

"SI.com: The Giants traded Damian Moss and Kurt Ainsworth to the Orioles for Sidney Ponson. How much does Ponson strengthen San Francisco's rotation?

Tom Verducci: The Giants traded two good young arms so this deal is a message that they don't trust young pitching. And I know Ponson is only 26, but in terms of experience, the Giants feel better about giving him the ball in a big game or a postseason situation than they do other guys who are young and haven't thrown many innings. This is another case of getting a pitcher at exactly the right time. Ponson has matured and he's a more reliable option for the Giants. I thought Ponson was the best player available on the market. Give the Giants credit for getting him."

Man, what is he on? "Don't trust young pitching"? Does that mean the Giants don't trust Foppert & Jerome Williams??? Or just normal bull**** analyst?

Sometimes, people make me want to scream or go on a murderous rampage.

matskralc · 07-31-2003, 07:59 PM

You'd think the Giants just landed Pedro or Bob friggin Gibson, they way everyone is talking about Ponson. It's Sidney Ponson! He's almost Jose Guillen, to a lesser degree. A perennial disappointment, who suddenly turns in a good year. I bet he does well the rest of the year, oweing to the change in leagues, but he ain't no Pedro. You guys totally got hosed on this one. I heard about the Ainsworth/Moss for Ponson part on TV, and went looking to see if the Giants at least got a minor prospect in return, and instead, the GIANTS were the ones tossing in a prospect. I just don't get this. This much value for a guy who's followed up, what, 4 bad years with one good half.

Vryllyn · 07-31-2003, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by matskralc
You'd think the Giants just landed Pedro or Bob friggin Gibson, they way everyone is talking about Ponson. It's Sidney Ponson! He's almost Jose Guillen, to a lesser degree. A perennial disappointment, who suddenly turns in a good year. I bet he does well the rest of the year, oweing to the change in leagues, but he ain't no Pedro. You guys totally got hosed on this one. I heard about the Ainsworth/Moss for Ponson part on TV, and went looking to see if the Giants at least got a minor prospect in return, and instead, the GIANTS were the ones tossing in a prospect. I just don't get this. This much value for a guy who's followed up, what, 4 bad years with one good half.

It's crazy. I mean two young pitchers and a prospect for a guy having one good season. Plus, Ponson is a free agent at the end of the season. It's just a dumb trade.

After this trade, why in the hell did the Giants trade Russ Ortiz in the first place! ARRRGGGGHHHH!

GForce22 · 07-31-2003, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Aadik
he'a good gm- he just has the tendency to love the veterans a little too much at times. YOu always get the feeling that he'd give up a truckload of prospects for a good but not great player, just because he's proven- its a good thing I suppose sometimes, but its maddening to see your best youung talent dealt for above average players who aren't stars (Kent notwithstanding) or even all-star level, ever. I know prospects don't pan out, but in our dreams, Foppert, Williams, and Ainsworth head the NL west's best rotation (along with Schmdit and Bonser) in 2005..

FWIW, I agree that the Giants gave up too much. I'm a big Ainsworth fan, though I don't love Moss. I don't think it's as bad as you guys are making it out to be, but it's more than I would have given.

GH

Mariner and Giants Fan · 07-31-2003, 11:22 PM

I cannot believe how my fellow Giant fans are WHINING!! Did I look at the wrong standings, or are the Giants not 12 games up on the D-Backs?! Did the giants not come within one game (6 outs) of winning the World Series last year?! Brian Sabean is a brilliant GM! Many others, reporters and GM's agree.

I live outside of Seattle and I was listening to the Mariner announcers (some former players and the main announcer is over 30 years in the field). Four out of five say that the Giants made the best deal of all teams at the trading deadline. They said that they put themselves in a better position to win it all than any of the other teams.

Apparently they place more value on Ponson than any of the fans here. I would tend to side with their knowledge.

matskralc · 07-31-2003, 11:30 PM

....right. Because we all know that The Seattle Mariners' announcers have been watching Sidney Ponson as well as the Giants pitchers all season.

Nobody, I don't think, was questioning Sabean's tenure as GM. They're questioning this specific trade. And I have a hard time buying the proposition that the Giants made out better than the Red Sox during this year's deadline dealing.

07-31-2003, 05:47 PM	#1
Crapshoot Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: watching: DArwin's missing link in action Posts: 3,112	The Ponson Deal- let me whine away some more, but explain why :D btw, just in case anyone thinks I havent whined enough, Im going to cry about the Ponson deal- but Im going to make an attempt to justify the whining. Ponson's numbers are basically the same as Ainsworths, extrapolated over a period of almost double the starts. Ainsworth (3.82 ERA, 6.34 K/9, 1.65 K/BB)- Ponson (6.08 K/9, 2.33 K/BB, 3.77 ERA)- I realize Ainsworth is in PAc Bell as opposed to Camden Yards, and concede Ponson is a better pitcher, but 8 million dollars (expected free agent price) and 5 years cheap better ? More so, Moss had been pitching far better recently- why mess with a winning formula, by trading guys who are doing damn well ? And Hannerman is a high upside prospect- certainly a flameout possibility, but the kind of guy you throw in as a the bait on a big deal- not as a filler at the end, the way SF is doing it. Sabes got snookered by the win totals- bring back Thrift- we could have gotten Ponson for Bernard and Neifi... Basically, I think this is a god-awful deal for the Giants- I understand the window of opportunity, but Ainsworth, Foppert, Williams etc were the bridge to the next generation (post Bonds)- now I shudder to think of the team in 3 years if this is the trend.

07-31-2003, 06:26 PM	#3
Crapshoot Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: watching: DArwin's missing link in action Posts: 3,112	"Rob Neyer: *UPDATE* The Giants traded Kurt Ainsworth and Damian Moss to the Orioles for Sidney Ponson. Seems like a great deal for the Giants, who are loaded with young pitching prospects, but can use a veteran like Ponson when October rolls around. " Is Neyer smoking crack- he's talking about veteran experience ? __________________ Senior Senor Member of the OOTP Boards Pittsburgh Playmates- OTBL

07-31-2003, 06:43 PM	#6
Vryllyn Minors (Single A) Join Date: May 2003 Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA Posts: 70	Man, I'm going to be bitchin' about this for a while. I was actually becoming a big fan of Moss. Remember the days when the Giants had no pitching. Right after they released (or let go) of Bill Swift & John Burkett. And us, Giants fans got to stick together. Last edited by Vryllyn; 07-31-2003 at 06:47 PM.

07-31-2003, 07:15 PM	#14
matskralc Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,076	Yeah. Give us our credit when it's due, dammit. We can't do anything ELSE right on or off the field. The least you could do is applaud us for making other teams better. __________________ Well, they have a saying here in Texas ... but they probably don't have it in California, so never mind. OTBL - Pennsylvania Fightin' Amish ABC - Pittsburgh Puma OCHO - Pittsburgh Pirates EBU - Commissioner

07-31-2003, 07:59 PM	#16
matskralc Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,076	You'd think the Giants just landed Pedro or Bob friggin Gibson, they way everyone is talking about Ponson. It's Sidney Ponson! He's almost Jose Guillen, to a lesser degree. A perennial disappointment, who suddenly turns in a good year. I bet he does well the rest of the year, oweing to the change in leagues, but he ain't no Pedro. You guys totally got hosed on this one. I heard about the Ainsworth/Moss for Ponson part on TV, and went looking to see if the Giants at least got a minor prospect in return, and instead, the GIANTS were the ones tossing in a prospect. I just don't get this. This much value for a guy who's followed up, what, 4 bad years with one good half. __________________ Well, they have a saying here in Texas ... but they probably don't have it in California, so never mind. OTBL - Pennsylvania Fightin' Amish ABC - Pittsburgh Puma OCHO - Pittsburgh Pirates EBU - Commissioner

07-31-2003, 06:52 PM	#8
Vryllyn Minors (Single A) Join Date: May 2003 Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA Posts: 70	Matt Williams & Will Clark were like my favorites growning up. Jeffery Leonard. Candy Malandano (SP). Kruk, Ted Robinson, etc. But I don't miss Candlestick tho... Sabean, hopefully, will leave soon. Then maybe we can have a GM that's a little bit better, but he did bring the Giants, Jason Schmidt tho. That was nice. If I remember correctly, it was for Armando Rios and someone else. I guess, I can kind of forgive him, but not entirely.

07-31-2003, 06:58 PM	#9
GForce22 Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 2,654	This sounds like the move of a GM about to skip town for the Mets job after this season GH

07-31-2003, 07:54 PM	#15
Vryllyn Minors (Single A) Join Date: May 2003 Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA Posts: 70	"SI.com: The Giants traded Damian Moss and Kurt Ainsworth to the Orioles for Sidney Ponson. How much does Ponson strengthen San Francisco's rotation? Tom Verducci: The Giants traded two good young arms so this deal is a message that they don't trust young pitching. And I know Ponson is only 26, but in terms of experience, the Giants feel better about giving him the ball in a big game or a postseason situation than they do other guys who are young and haven't thrown many innings. This is another case of getting a pitcher at exactly the right time. Ponson has matured and he's a more reliable option for the Giants. I thought Ponson was the best player available on the market. Give the Giants credit for getting him." Man, what is he on? "Don't trust young pitching"? Does that mean the Giants don't trust Foppert & Jerome Williams??? Or just normal bull**** analyst? Sometimes, people make me want to scream or go on a murderous rampage.

07-31-2003, 11:22 PM	#19
Mariner and Giants Fan All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Port Townsend, WA. Posts: 1,264	I cannot believe how my fellow Giant fans are WHINING!! Did I look at the wrong standings, or are the Giants not 12 games up on the D-Backs?! Did the giants not come within one game (6 outs) of winning the World Series last year?! Brian Sabean is a brilliant GM! Many others, reporters and GM's agree. I live outside of Seattle and I was listening to the Mariner announcers (some former players and the main announcer is over 30 years in the field). Four out of five say that the Giants made the best deal of all teams at the trading deadline. They said that they put themselves in a better position to win it all than any of the other teams. Apparently they place more value on Ponson than any of the fans here. I would tend to side with their knowledge.

07-31-2003, 11:30 PM	#20
matskralc Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,076	....right. Because we all know that The Seattle Mariners' announcers have been watching Sidney Ponson as well as the Giants pitchers all season. Nobody, I don't think, was questioning Sabean's tenure as GM. They're questioning this specific trade. And I have a hard time buying the proposition that the Giants made out better than the Red Sox during this year's deadline dealing.