Using Pre-1871 Players?

JoeyS10 · 07-10-2024, 01:31 AM

Hi! I know that Historically you can only start in 1871, but has anyone ever created a fictional league using players that are pre-1871? Guys like Doc Adams, Frank Pidgeon, Jim Creighton, etc? or teams like the New York Gotham or New York Knickerbockers? Even the Brooklyn Atlantics (when they were amazing in the late 1850s and 1860s) or teams similar?

I would love to be able to make teams (as realistic as you can get) before 1871 but I am not understanding how to create players/teams like them if that makes sense? Have any of you done this prior to 1871?

Thanks!

BaseballMan · 07-10-2024, 05:00 PM

I'm not sure it would be worth it unless you would be ok with a basically a fictional league with some historical names.
I'm not sure how much data is available to do a historical replay.

JoeyS10 · 07-10-2024, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

I'm not sure it would be worth it unless you would be ok with a basically a fictional league with some historical names.
I'm not sure how much data is available to do a historical replay.

Yes I am ok with that...I just wasn't sure if anyone has ever tried anything like that because I want to make players like Doc Adams for example but I don't know how to do that accurately?

There is a lot of data on what positions they played and how many runs and outs they had but I don't know how to translate that to OOTP which is why I was curious if anyone has done that?

BaseballMan · 07-10-2024, 07:28 PM

Maybe take what data you can find and model the league on the national Association?

I'm guessing those players would be closest to what you would have
pre-1871 since some of them did play before 1871.

tm1681 · 07-11-2024, 04:25 AM

For pre-1871 baseball, the most complete research site is Protoball (https://protoball.org/Welcome_to_Protoball). You'll have to dig around for various teams & players.

I have a thread in there that's fictional with some real elements that starts in 1857: https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...d.php?t=350846, real in that I used some team names from the time and one real-life player. Otherwise all made-up, but it was able to conceive of it using resources like the link I've posted.

Some well-known teams from the period include Atlantic (Brooklyn), Mutual (NYC), Excelsior (Brooklyn), Knickerbocker (NYC/Manhattan), Eckford of Greenpoint (Brooklyn), Athletic of Philadelphia, and Union of Morrisania (NYC area).

A larger list of the earliest baseball clubs can be found here - https://mlb.mlb.com/memorylab/spread...iest_clubs.jsp - but the link doesn't seem to be working for me right now.

A one-stop page containing information about stars of the 1850s & 60s doesn't really exist as far as I know, so you'll have to probably do things like use Google and look up the National Association of Base Ball Players on WikiPedia. One potentially good resource might be this link: https://www.19cbaseball.com/players.html

Patsy Tebeau · 07-17-2024, 07:22 PM

since i am also fascinated by pre-1871 baseball, I have compiled a list to the best of my ability of players who were active during that time period on teams that do not have a player list on protoball. I also included this info on the br bullpen. They aren't complete but its hard to find much on a lot of these guys.

Unions of Lansingburgh players:
Bill Craver - Catcher
Cherokee Fisher - Pitcher
Steve King - Left fielder
John McMullin - Pitcher
Dickie Flowers - Infielder
Bub McAtee - Infielder
Esteban Bellan - Third baseman
Jim Foran - First baseman
Tom York - Outfielder
Marshall King - Center fielder
Clipper Flynn - First baseman
William Abrams - Second baseman
Anthony McQuide - Pitcher
Rafael Rúa - Pitcher
James McCune - Right fielder
Michael Powers - Unknown
Sonny Leavenworth - First baseman
Eugene Bonker - Unknown
James Ward - Second baseman
Cal Penfield - Third baseman

Rockford Forest Citys players:
Al Spalding - Pitcher
Ross Barnes - Second baseman
Tom Foley - Third baseman
Bob Addy - Second baseman
Fred Cone - First baseman
Scott Hastings - Catcher
Gat Stires - Right fielder
Joe Simmons - Center fielder
Al Barker - Outfielder
Dent Sawyer - Center fielder
George King - Catcher
Mart Wheeler - Left fielder
Frank Trumbull - Outfielder
Ernest Waxham - Unknown
Harry Starr - Unknown
Val Osborne - Unknown
Joe Doyle - First baseman
Wallace Lightheart - First baseman
H.J. Warner - Shortstop
M.L. Wheller - Center fielder
T.T. Webster - Second baseman
J.H. Manny - Sub/Scorer
S. Lakin - Third baseman
W. Stearns - Left fielder
Stearns? - First baseman
Brown? - Right fielder
Buckman? - Third baseman
Cheney? - Unknown
Ryan? - Unknown

Brooklyn Stars players:
Candy Cummings - Pitcher
Jim Creighton - Pitcher
Nat Hicks- Catcher
Asa Brainard - Pitcher
Fraley Rogers - Outfielder
Ed Beavens - Second baseman
George Hall - Outfielder
Dick Hunt - Outfielder
Herb Worth - Rightfielder
John Whiting - Third baseman
Thomas MacDiarmed - Unknown

Niagaras of Buffalo players:
W.N. Loomis - Pitcher
Frank Sidway - Left field
Albert Bishop - Center field
Jeremiah Sidway - Right field
John Higgins - Second base
John B. Sage - Catcher
William S. Miller - First base
William Wardwill - Third base
David Burt - Shortstop

Cleveland Forest Citys players:
Deacon White - Catcher
Elmer White - Outfielder/Catcher
Al Pratt - Pitcher
Chick Fulmer - Infielder
Jim Carleton - First baseman
Ezra Sutton - Catcher/Third basean
Gene Kimball - Second baseman
Art Allison - Outfielder
George Heubel - Right fielder
John Ward - Outfielder

Philadelphia Athletics players:
Dick McBride, Pitcher
Lip Pike, Outfielder
Fergy Malone, Catcher
John McMullin, Pitcher
Tom Pratt, First baseman
Wes Fisler, First baseman/Second baseman
John Radcliff, Shortstop
Jim Foran, First baseman
Tom Berry, Shortstop/Outfielder
Levi Meyerle, Infielder
Harry Schafer, Infielder
George Heubel, First baseman
Al Reach, Second baseman
Count Sensenderfer, Outfielder
Nate Berkenstock, First baseman/Outfielder
Hicks Hayhurst, Outfielder
Patsy Dockney, Catcher/Outfielder
Isaac Wilkins, Shortstop/Outfielder
Charlie Gaskill, Rightfielder
E.A. Gaskill, Leftfielder
Dan Kleinfelder, Catcher/Outfielder
Mike Smith, Third baseman/Outfielder
Leugene?, Infielder
Kahmar?, Third baseman/Outfielder
Woolman?, Outfielder
McCleary?, Outfielder
Pharo?, Outfielder/Catcher

JoeyS10 · 03-24-2025, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tm1681

For pre-1871 baseball, the most complete research site is Protoball (https://protoball.org/Welcome_to_Protoball). You'll have to dig around for various teams & players.

I have a thread in there that's fictional with some real elements that starts in 1857: https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...d.php?t=350846, real in that I used some team names from the time and one real-life player. Otherwise all made-up, but it was able to conceive of it using resources like the link I've posted.

Some well-known teams from the period include Atlantic (Brooklyn), Mutual (NYC), Excelsior (Brooklyn), Knickerbocker (NYC/Manhattan), Eckford of Greenpoint (Brooklyn), Athletic of Philadelphia, and Union of Morrisania (NYC area).

A larger list of the earliest baseball clubs can be found here - https://mlb.mlb.com/memorylab/spread...iest_clubs.jsp - but the link doesn't seem to be working for me right now.

A one-stop page containing information about stars of the 1850s & 60s doesn't really exist as far as I know, so you'll have to probably do things like use Google and look up the National Association of Base Ball Players on WikiPedia. One potentially good resource might be this link: https://www.19cbaseball.com/players.html

I understand who the players are and how to find those players...that's not what I am asking...

Using players like Doc Adams, Jim Creighton, Frank Pidgeon, the Van Cott Brothers for example...how do you figure out what their ratings would be considering they don't have baseball reference stats?

I understand it won't be completely accurate but how do you pick their rating so it can be somewhat close?

That's what I am asking...

JoeyS10 · 03-24-2025, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patsy Tebeau

since i am also fascinated by pre-1871 baseball, I have compiled a list to the best of my ability of players who were active during that time period on teams that do not have a player list on protoball. I also included this info on the br bullpen. They aren't complete but its hard to find much on a lot of these guys.

Unions of Lansingburgh players:
Bill Craver - Catcher
Cherokee Fisher - Pitcher
Steve King - Left fielder
John McMullin - Pitcher
Dickie Flowers - Infielder
Bub McAtee - Infielder
Esteban Bellan - Third baseman
Jim Foran - First baseman
Tom York - Outfielder
Marshall King - Center fielder
Clipper Flynn - First baseman
William Abrams - Second baseman
Anthony McQuide - Pitcher
Rafael Rúa - Pitcher
James McCune - Right fielder
Michael Powers - Unknown
Sonny Leavenworth - First baseman
Eugene Bonker - Unknown
James Ward - Second baseman
Cal Penfield - Third baseman

Rockford Forest Citys players:
Al Spalding - Pitcher
Ross Barnes - Second baseman
Tom Foley - Third baseman
Bob Addy - Second baseman
Fred Cone - First baseman
Scott Hastings - Catcher
Gat Stires - Right fielder
Joe Simmons - Center fielder
Al Barker - Outfielder
Dent Sawyer - Center fielder
George King - Catcher
Mart Wheeler - Left fielder
Frank Trumbull - Outfielder
Ernest Waxham - Unknown
Harry Starr - Unknown
Val Osborne - Unknown
Joe Doyle - First baseman
Wallace Lightheart - First baseman
H.J. Warner - Shortstop
M.L. Wheller - Center fielder
T.T. Webster - Second baseman
J.H. Manny - Sub/Scorer
S. Lakin - Third baseman
W. Stearns - Left fielder
Stearns? - First baseman
Brown? - Right fielder
Buckman? - Third baseman
Cheney? - Unknown
Ryan? - Unknown

Brooklyn Stars players:
Candy Cummings - Pitcher
Jim Creighton - Pitcher
Nat Hicks- Catcher
Asa Brainard - Pitcher
Fraley Rogers - Outfielder
Ed Beavens - Second baseman
George Hall - Outfielder
Dick Hunt - Outfielder
Herb Worth - Rightfielder
John Whiting - Third baseman
Thomas MacDiarmed - Unknown

Niagaras of Buffalo players:
W.N. Loomis - Pitcher
Frank Sidway - Left field
Albert Bishop - Center field
Jeremiah Sidway - Right field
John Higgins - Second base
John B. Sage - Catcher
William S. Miller - First base
William Wardwill - Third base
David Burt - Shortstop

Cleveland Forest Citys players:
Deacon White - Catcher
Elmer White - Outfielder/Catcher
Al Pratt - Pitcher
Chick Fulmer - Infielder
Jim Carleton - First baseman
Ezra Sutton - Catcher/Third basean
Gene Kimball - Second baseman
Art Allison - Outfielder
George Heubel - Right fielder
John Ward - Outfielder

Philadelphia Athletics players:
Dick McBride, Pitcher
Lip Pike, Outfielder
Fergy Malone, Catcher
John McMullin, Pitcher
Tom Pratt, First baseman
Wes Fisler, First baseman/Second baseman
John Radcliff, Shortstop
Jim Foran, First baseman
Tom Berry, Shortstop/Outfielder
Levi Meyerle, Infielder
Harry Schafer, Infielder
George Heubel, First baseman
Al Reach, Second baseman
Count Sensenderfer, Outfielder
Nate Berkenstock, First baseman/Outfielder
Hicks Hayhurst, Outfielder
Patsy Dockney, Catcher/Outfielder
Isaac Wilkins, Shortstop/Outfielder
Charlie Gaskill, Rightfielder
E.A. Gaskill, Leftfielder
Dan Kleinfelder, Catcher/Outfielder
Mike Smith, Third baseman/Outfielder
Leugene?, Infielder
Kahmar?, Third baseman/Outfielder
Woolman?, Outfielder
McCleary?, Outfielder
Pharo?, Outfielder/Catcher

I understand who the players are and how to find those players...that's not what I am asking...

Using players like Doc Adams, Jim Creighton, Frank Pidgeon, the Van Cott Brothers for example...how do you figure out what their ratings would be considering they don't have baseball reference stats?

I understand it won't be completely accurate but how do you pick their rating so it can be somewhat close?

That's what I am asking...

07-10-2024, 01:31 AM	#1
JoeyS10 Bat Boy Join Date: Jul 2024 Posts: 13	Using Pre-1871 Players? Hi! I know that Historically you can only start in 1871, but has anyone ever created a fictional league using players that are pre-1871? Guys like Doc Adams, Frank Pidgeon, Jim Creighton, etc? or teams like the New York Gotham or New York Knickerbockers? Even the Brooklyn Atlantics (when they were amazing in the late 1850s and 1860s) or teams similar? I would love to be able to make teams (as realistic as you can get) before 1871 but I am not understanding how to create players/teams like them if that makes sense? Have any of you done this prior to 1871? Thanks!

07-11-2024, 04:25 AM	#5
tm1681 All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Salt Lake City, UT Posts: 1,425	For pre-1871 baseball, the most complete research site is Protoball (https://protoball.org/Welcome_to_Protoball). You'll have to dig around for various teams & players. I have a thread in there that's fictional with some real elements that starts in 1857: https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...d.php?t=350846, real in that I used some team names from the time and one real-life player. Otherwise all made-up, but it was able to conceive of it using resources like the link I've posted. Some well-known teams from the period include Atlantic (Brooklyn), Mutual (NYC), Excelsior (Brooklyn), Knickerbocker (NYC/Manhattan), Eckford of Greenpoint (Brooklyn), Athletic of Philadelphia, and Union of Morrisania (NYC area). A larger list of the earliest baseball clubs can be found here - https://mlb.mlb.com/memorylab/spread...iest_clubs.jsp - but the link doesn't seem to be working for me right now. A one-stop page containing information about stars of the 1850s & 60s doesn't really exist as far as I know, so you'll have to probably do things like use Google and look up the National Association of Base Ball Players on WikiPedia. One potentially good resource might be this link: https://www.19cbaseball.com/players.html __________________ Logo & uniform work here Thread about my fictional universe that begins in 1857 here Last edited by tm1681; 07-11-2024 at 04:27 AM.

07-17-2024, 07:22 PM	#6
Patsy Tebeau All Star Starter Join Date: Aug 2023 Location: Wilkes-Barre, PA Posts: 1,363	Some player names from pre-1871 teams that aren't included on protoball since i am also fascinated by pre-1871 baseball, I have compiled a list to the best of my ability of players who were active during that time period on teams that do not have a player list on protoball. I also included this info on the br bullpen. They aren't complete but its hard to find much on a lot of these guys. Unions of Lansingburgh players: Bill Craver - Catcher Cherokee Fisher - Pitcher Steve King - Left fielder John McMullin - Pitcher Dickie Flowers - Infielder Bub McAtee - Infielder Esteban Bellan - Third baseman Jim Foran - First baseman Tom York - Outfielder Marshall King - Center fielder Clipper Flynn - First baseman William Abrams - Second baseman Anthony McQuide - Pitcher Rafael Rúa - Pitcher James McCune - Right fielder Michael Powers - Unknown Sonny Leavenworth - First baseman Eugene Bonker - Unknown James Ward - Second baseman Cal Penfield - Third baseman Rockford Forest Citys players: Al Spalding - Pitcher Ross Barnes - Second baseman Tom Foley - Third baseman Bob Addy - Second baseman Fred Cone - First baseman Scott Hastings - Catcher Gat Stires - Right fielder Joe Simmons - Center fielder Al Barker - Outfielder Dent Sawyer - Center fielder George King - Catcher Mart Wheeler - Left fielder Frank Trumbull - Outfielder Ernest Waxham - Unknown Harry Starr - Unknown Val Osborne - Unknown Joe Doyle - First baseman Wallace Lightheart - First baseman H.J. Warner - Shortstop M.L. Wheller - Center fielder T.T. Webster - Second baseman J.H. Manny - Sub/Scorer S. Lakin - Third baseman W. Stearns - Left fielder Stearns? - First baseman Brown? - Right fielder Buckman? - Third baseman Cheney? - Unknown Ryan? - Unknown Brooklyn Stars players: Candy Cummings - Pitcher Jim Creighton - Pitcher Nat Hicks- Catcher Asa Brainard - Pitcher Fraley Rogers - Outfielder Ed Beavens - Second baseman George Hall - Outfielder Dick Hunt - Outfielder Herb Worth - Rightfielder John Whiting - Third baseman Thomas MacDiarmed - Unknown Niagaras of Buffalo players: W.N. Loomis - Pitcher Frank Sidway - Left field Albert Bishop - Center field Jeremiah Sidway - Right field John Higgins - Second base John B. Sage - Catcher William S. Miller - First base William Wardwill - Third base David Burt - Shortstop Cleveland Forest Citys players: Deacon White - Catcher Elmer White - Outfielder/Catcher Al Pratt - Pitcher Chick Fulmer - Infielder Jim Carleton - First baseman Ezra Sutton - Catcher/Third basean Gene Kimball - Second baseman Art Allison - Outfielder George Heubel - Right fielder John Ward - Outfielder Philadelphia Athletics players: Dick McBride, Pitcher Lip Pike, Outfielder Fergy Malone, Catcher John McMullin, Pitcher Tom Pratt, First baseman Wes Fisler, First baseman/Second baseman John Radcliff, Shortstop Jim Foran, First baseman Tom Berry, Shortstop/Outfielder Levi Meyerle, Infielder Harry Schafer, Infielder George Heubel, First baseman Al Reach, Second baseman Count Sensenderfer, Outfielder Nate Berkenstock, First baseman/Outfielder Hicks Hayhurst, Outfielder Patsy Dockney, Catcher/Outfielder Isaac Wilkins, Shortstop/Outfielder Charlie Gaskill, Rightfielder E.A. Gaskill, Leftfielder Dan Kleinfelder, Catcher/Outfielder Mike Smith, Third baseman/Outfielder Leugene?, Infielder Kahmar?, Third baseman/Outfielder Woolman?, Outfielder McCleary?, Outfielder Pharo?, Outfielder/Catcher __________________ They say follow your heart Follow it through But how can you When it's split in two? Last edited by Patsy Tebeau; 07-17-2024 at 07:35 PM.

07-10-2024, 05:00 PM	#2
BaseballMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,518	I'm not sure it would be worth it unless you would be ok with a basically a fictional league with some historical names. I'm not sure how much data is available to do a historical replay.

07-10-2024, 07:28 PM	#4
BaseballMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,518	Maybe take what data you can find and model the league on the national Association? I'm guessing those players would be closest to what you would have pre-1871 since some of them did play before 1871.