schedule issue... can't figure this out...

[thehef]

I've got a schedule (that I built) where the order of the teams in not matching up. First, from the manual:

"When a schedule is applied to a specific OOTP league, the teams in the league are assigned IDs in alphabetical order by team (city) name within each division, going through divisions from top to bottom, starting in and going through subleague 1, then going through subleague 2 in the same manner."

The way I interpret this is that in the schedule file you would use "1" for the id for the team in your league that comes first alphabetically, and 2 for the team that comes next alphabetically. So, as an example and also the in the specific case of my issue, these are my teams and the id number I associate with them:

1 - Los Angeles
2 - Oakland
3 - Sacramento
4 - San Francisco

I'll note that in the creation and testing of several schedule files previously, I have had no troubles with the above logic actually working in practice.

However, for this particular issue, I'm finding that OOTP is not reading the teams in the order of the 4-team list above. Rather, it's seeing it as follows:

1 - Sacramento
2 - Los Angeles
3 - San Francisco
4 - Oakland

I'll note that in my test league, it's the first year of the league so there should be no randomizing of the team id/order that the manual alludes to for subsequent seasons.

Anybody run into anything like this before?

[thehef]

FYI, I ran a re-test of this and it seemed to work fine... Strange... We may never know...

[bwburke94]

It might be by internal team ID.

[thehef]

Strange... This same scenario played out again. Set up a test and the schedule's matchups did not correspond to the alpha-ordered team numbers... Tried again, exact same steps, settings, etc., and they lined up correctly... Very weird...

Originally Posted by bwburke94

It might be by internal team ID.

Nope, it's not that. The internal team ID numbers correspond to the correct order of the teams.

IOW...
1 - Los Angeles (internal id #66)
2 - Oakland (67)
3 - Sacramento (68)
4 - San Francisco (69)

[thehef]

This seems like as a good a thread as any to post this strange issue...

So I was doing a historical test where I modified the teams.csv file to include 2 additional teams in each league beginning with the 1912 season. I started in 1910, so when I got to the 1911-12 offseason, that's when the additional teams appeared. No real issues with the test, other than what happened with the schedule:

- As I moved to the 1912 preseason, the Options panel shows that it's using the major_league_ml_c_1911_ap schedule (not the ...1912_ap one) and that the season start date is 4/12/12
- However, the actual schedule file being used, which I determined by going to the editor and clicking Export, is ILN_BGY_G154_SL1_D1_T10_SL2_D1_T10.lsdl, and the season start date is actually 4/17/1912.
- Interestingly, that schedule file name is not in my schedules directory. In fact, it doesn't exist anywhere on my PC. When I export the schedule file and open it, it does not include an actual start date. I mean, I didn't expect it to, but I was just checking since I have no idea where OOTP comes up with the start date of 4/17/1912 and ignores the start date on the Options panel of 4/12/1912 (the actual schedule for - 1912 major_league_ml_c_1911_ap - indicates a start date of 4/11/1912).
- I'll note that the schedule is not realistic from the perspective of ending series' on Sundays, 4th of July doubleheaders, start times (plenty of night games). Given the above, I didn't expect it to be, but still thought I'd note it...
- I realize that a 1911_ap (or 1912_ap) schedule would not actually work when I have two additional teams... But what I don't understand is why OOTP would reference on the Options panel a schedule that it is not using...

There were no show-stoppers here; I was able to move forward without making any changes. But overall it doesn't make sense (to me, anyway). Does anyone understand / can anyone explain what's going on here?

[gmo]

In thinking about this, one guess is that since the league structure no longer matches real MLB 1912 (the two additional teams per league), those actual MLB schedules are completely ignored since they can no longer be used in the league.

I do not find a schedule with that "ILN_BGY_G154_SL1_D1_T10_SL2_D1_T10.lsdl" name in the game schedules folder. I wonder if the export invented that name?

That still leaves the question of where that schedule came from. Whether there is something I missed that matches the structure and number of games or if the game made something itself, I suspect it would have a much more modern setup, like with many night games.

[joefromchicago]

Originally Posted by thehef

- As I moved to the 1912 preseason, the Options panel shows that it's using the major_league_ml_c_1911_ap schedule (not the ...1912_ap one) and that the season start date is 4/12/12
- However, the actual schedule file being used, which I determined by going to the editor and clicking Export, is ILN_BGY_G154_SL1_D1_T10_SL2_D1_T10.lsdl, and the season start date is actually 4/17/1912.
- Interestingly, that schedule file name is not in my schedules directory. In fact, it doesn't exist anywhere on my PC. When I export the schedule file and open it, it does not include an actual start date. I mean, I didn't expect it to, but I was just checking since I have no idea where OOTP comes up with the start date of 4/17/1912 and ignores the start date on the Options panel of 4/12/1912 (the actual schedule for - 1912 major_league_ml_c_1911_ap - indicates a start date of 4/11/1912).
- I'll note that the schedule is not realistic from the perspective of ending series' on Sundays, 4th of July doubleheaders, start times (plenty of night games). Given the above, I didn't expect it to be, but still thought I'd note it...
- I realize that a 1911_ap (or 1912_ap) schedule would not actually work when I have two additional teams... But what I don't understand is why OOTP would reference on the Options panel a schedule that it is not using...

Well:

(1) I imagine the options page showed that the league would be using the 1912 ap schedule because that follows the 1911 ap schedule. The fact that you expanded to ten teams in each league probably hadn't registered with the game yet. I'd expect that the options page would still give the wrong schedule up until the game actually had twenty teams playing - so opening day (or spring training, if you have that enabled);

(2) Yeah;

(3) Unless you force-set the start date as 4/12, the schedule will pick the first day of the week that matches the schedule's start day. So, for instance, if the schedule starts on a Tuesday, it will pick the closest Tuesday to the date that you chose as the start date;

(4) A ten-team schedule is way more difficult to devise than an eight-team schedule. The NL tried it in 1890 and the result was so awful that it decided to drop two teams rather than attempt to go forward as a ten-team league. So yeah, the in-game scheduler is going to do a bad job of it. I'm surprised that it can even come close to getting it right;

(5) see 3, above

[thehef]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

(1) I imagine the options page showed that the league would be using the 1912 ap schedule because that follows the 1911 ap schedule. The fact that you expanded to ten teams in each league probably hadn't registered with the game yet. I'd expect that the options page would still give the wrong schedule up until the game actually had twenty teams playing - so opening day (or spring training, if you have that enabled);

Nope. The game is in the 1913 preseason and on the Options panel it still shows the 1911 ap. I would think for every league (for minors, this panel never indicates the schedule file being used) it should show the filename of the schedule in play... I guess in this case, once OOTP realized that the connection to historical MLB structure had been broken, it broke the connection with the Options page, or at least with that particular field.

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

(2) Yeah; (re: "the actual schedule file being used, which I determined by going to the editor and clicking Export, is ILN_BGY_G154_SL1_D1_T10_SL2_D1_T10.lsdl...")

I wasn't aware that OOTP would create a new schedule file. I thought it just would go into the data/schedule folder and find one... And I guess it's surprising that this relatively simple structure - 10 teams in two subleagues, 20 teams total - doesn't already have a default schedule...

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

(3) Unless you force-set the start date as 4/12, the schedule will pick the first day of the week that matches the schedule's start day. So, for instance, if the schedule starts on a Tuesday, it will pick the closest Tuesday to the date that you chose as the start date;

Good to know. Or I guess I knew this but forgot. But thanks... I guess I'd prefer that OOTP updated this field on the Options panel to the actual start date...

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

(4) A ten-team schedule is way more difficult to devise than an eight-team schedule. The NL tried it in 1890 and the result was so awful that it decided to drop two teams rather than attempt to go forward as a ten-team league. So yeah, the in-game scheduler is going to do a bad job of it. I'm surprised that it can even come close to getting it right;

There are several out there in the big schedule thread (that you maintain). I wonder if any of those would work better than what OOTP comes up with... That all said, I wasn't expecting OOTP to come up with a realistic schedule - no evening start times, realistic travel days, appropriate holiday doubleheaders...

At any rate & on the subject of the modded schedules that are available, I was having trouble understanding the difference between the full schedule names and how the schedules are listed in the thread. Took me a few to figure out that these are the same thing in terms of structure:

ILY_BGN_G148_SL1_D1_T10_SL2_D1_T10_C_a1 - schedule file name / structure parameters
2S/1D/10T - shortcut for the above

Correct?

Thanks Joe!

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

A ten-team schedule is way more difficult to devise than an eight-team schedule. The NL tried it in 1890 and the result was so awful that it decided to drop two teams rather than attempt to go forward as a ten-team league.

TSN in the early 1960s published an article on the scheduling for the 10-team AL and NL. I'll see if I can dig it up.

As I recall, the league was split into three groups of three teams and the remaining club was the designated swing team. Two of the three-team groups would play against each other while the swing team joined the remaining group to make four teams which played among themselves. After three or six series the swing team would join a different three-team group and the other two groups would play each other. This pattern was followed throughout the schedule.

[joefromchicago]

Originally Posted by thehef

At any rate & on the subject of the modded schedules that are available, I was having trouble understanding the difference between the full schedule names and how the schedules are listed in the thread. Took me a few to figure out that these are the same thing in terms of structure:

ILY_BGN_G148_SL1_D1_T10_SL2_D1_T10_C_a1 - schedule file name / structure parameters
2S/1D/10T - shortcut for the above

Correct?

Thanks Joe!

Yes, that's the format that I inherited from GMO when I took over the schedule lists (so if you have a problem with it, blame him ). It goes subleagues per league/divisions per subleague/teams per division, with schedules grouped according to the total number of teams in the league. So you'd be looking for 2S/1D/10T schedules within the "20 teams" group. [EDIT: Of course, if you're not planning on having interleague games, then you can always look at the schedules for single ten-team leagues using the 1S/1D/10T format and then use the same schedule for both subleagues]

[joefromchicago]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

TSN in the early 1960s published an article on the scheduling for the 10-team AL and NL. I'll see if I can dig it up.

As I recall, the league was split into three groups of three teams and the remaining club was the designated swing team. Two of the three-team groups would play against each other while the swing team joined the remaining group to make four teams which played among themselves. After three or six series the swing team would join a different three-team group and the other two groups would play each other. This pattern was followed throughout the schedule.

I would love to see that article. I'm a SABR member, so I have access to the old TSN issues. You can post a link or just tell me the issue and I can find it. Thanks!

[thehef]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

I would love to see that article. I'm a SABR member, so I have access to the old TSN issues. You can post a link or just tell me the issue and I can find it. Thanks!

Plus 1 (except I am not a SABR member; tho a big fan)

[Le Grande Orange]

Scheduling articles:

New York Times, Jan. 11, 1955, p.29 = "Who Drafts Schedules for Baseball and How"
The Sporting News, Feb. 20, 1965, p.18 = "N.L. Gullivers Slash 1965 Average to 28,757 Miles"
The Sporting News, Mar. 14, 1970, p.18-19 = "Reds to Open National League Schedule on April 6"
The Sporting News, Feb. 13, 1971, p.32 = "Three-Club Format Brings New Variety to Senior Circuit Schedule"
New York Times, Jan. 17, 1975, p.25-26 = "Schedules Vex Their Makers"


Proposed interleague schedule for 1963:

The Sporting News, Sep. 15, 1962, p.2 = "Lowdown on Frick Pitch tor Inter-Loop Play"


Reactions to schedules:

Washington Post, Jul. 11, 1977, p.D2 = "AL Scheduling Singularly Disgraceful"
Washington Post, Apr. 10, 1979, p.D1,D5 = "AL's 'Balanced Schedule' Has Oriole Boss Boiling"


I can PM or e-mail any of these articles to those interested.

[joefromchicago]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Scheduling articles:

New York Times, Jan. 11, 1955, p.29 = "Who Drafts Schedules for Baseball and How"
The Sporting News, Feb. 20, 1965, p.18 = "N.L. Gullivers Slash 1965 Average to 28,757 Miles"
The Sporting News, Mar. 14, 1970, p.18-19 = "Reds to Open National League Schedule on April 6"
The Sporting News, Feb. 13, 1971, p.32 = "Three-Club Format Brings New Variety to Senior Circuit Schedule"
New York Times, Jan. 17, 1975, p.25-26 = "Schedules Vex Their Makers"


Proposed interleague schedule for 1963:

The Sporting News, Sep. 15, 1962, p.2 = "Lowdown on Frick Pitch tor Inter-Loop Play"


Reactions to schedules:

Washington Post, Jul. 11, 1977, p.D2 = "AL Scheduling Singularly Disgraceful"
Washington Post, Apr. 10, 1979, p.D1,D5 = "AL's 'Balanced Schedule' Has Oriole Boss Boiling"


I can PM or e-mail any of these articles to those interested.

That's fantastic! Thanks so much. I can find the TSN articles but I'd be very much obliged if you could send me the NYT and WaPo articles.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

That's fantastic! Thanks so much. I can find the TSN articles but I'd be very much obliged if you could send me the NYT and WaPo articles.

Can't seem to attach files to a PM so I'll add the New York Times articles here. The Washington Post article files are slightly too large to be attached.

[joefromchicago]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Can't seem to attach files to a PM so I'll add the New York Times articles here. The Washington Post article files are slightly too large to be attached.

Not a problem. These are great! Thanks again!

[Le Grande Orange]

A little Photoshop magic, and here are the Washington Post articles.

[joefromchicago]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

A little Photoshop magic, and here are the Washington Post articles.

You made my day! Many thanks!

[99LVAces]

This seems like a good thread to ask a scheduling question. How do I get interleague play in a historical league before actual interleague play begins? Checking the interleague box and unchecking the auto adjust if matching xml schedule found, unchecking the balanced format but after generating a new schedule it always goes back to non-interleague play.

[joefromchicago]

Originally Posted by 99LVAces

This seems like a good thread to ask a scheduling question. How do I get interleague play in a historical league before actual interleague play begins? Checking the interleague box and unchecking the auto adjust if matching xml schedule found, unchecking the balanced format but after generating a new schedule it always goes back to non-interleague play.

Short answer: you can't.

Long answer: OOTP's automatic scheduler can't create interleague schedules. The fact that there's a check box that says "interleague" makes everyone think that the box has some effect on the schedule creator, but it doesn't. So your best bet is to look at the thousands of schedules in the updated schedule list (stickied at the top of this sub-forum) and see if there's a schedule you can download that matches your league's format.