How to fix Combinators

[HRBaker]

It's obvious many of us simply do not like Combinators as they currently exist. They require too much time, too many cards, and are too complex. Sure, the whales love them, but they love anything they can throw money at, and the Combinator card shop proves most of us simply aren't going to take part.


Here an idea that I think could work for everyone... simplification.

1. Create Combinators as they are now with current odds.
2. Change the upgrade path from 5 to 3 levels.
3. Upgrade cards from other cards using "same team (ie: Mets = Mets)", "same decade (ie: 1980s = 1980s)", and "ie: Legends = Legends" same card series" ONLY. Duplicate cards would thus be worth the most.
4. Add quick sell at 2 times the normal card value.

That's it!!! No extra rules. East to remember, and the benefits are available to anyone.

[Tinkerman]

None of this would help this version and I'd guess it's been discussed to death on Discord already anyway, but... I think it would be better gameplay all round if combinators levelled up with use. You wanna level a card quickly? Play it in as many formats as possible. There could be 'level up' perks which could be issued in a number of ways. As prizes for winning your league, tourney rewards, very rare pack drops, twitch prizes, etc.

Make each combinator pull feel special. Combinators could be level specific (iron, bronze, etc), but blank, so that the player can choose a card of that level in their collection to upgrade.

Top players would still have their advantage, I would definitely enjoy the game more, and it could still be very good for revenue.

[bbgods]

Originally Posted by HRBaker

It's obvious many of us simply do not like Combinators as they currently exist. They require too much time, too many cards, and are too complex. Sure, the whales love them, but they love anything they can throw money at, and the Combinator card shop proves most of us simply aren't going to take part.


Here an idea that I think could work for everyone... simplification.

1. Create Combinators as they are now with current odds.
2. Change the upgrade path from 5 to 3 levels.
3. Upgrade cards from other cards using "same team (ie: Mets = Mets)", "same decade (ie: 1980s = 1980s)", and "ie: Legends = Legends" same card series" ONLY. Duplicate cards would thus be worth the most.
4. Add quick sell at 2 times the normal card value.

That's it!!! No extra rules. East to remember, and the benefits are available to anyone.

Much better. My suggestion is to scrap the whole idea. I still miss my John Cangelosi card that got eaten up by the combinator monster in a futile attempt to boost Brad Holman.

[Hwilensky]

The easiest way to fix the combinator issue is to remove them from the game...next to team chemistry.......truly the worst idea ever.

[Fabtron7]

Tell him Wash...

[Kushiel]

Originally Posted by Fabtron7

Tell him Wash...

Thanks for your insight. It adds absolutely no value to this conversation.

[Fabtron7]

[QUOTE=Kushiel;5108231]Thanks for your insight. It adds absolutely no value to this conversation.[/QUOTE.]

Combinators aren’t changing (at least not this version of the game) people have already invested too heavily into them for OOTP to claw it back at this point.

Sooner or later the people devoting their lives to griping about it are going to realize this is just the new normal and lean into it.

[HRBaker]

[QUOTE=Fabtron7;5108246]

Originally Posted by Kushiel

Thanks for your insight. It adds absolutely no value to this conversation.[/QUOTE.]

Combinators aren’t changing (at least not this version of the game) people have already invested too heavily into them for OOTP to claw it back at this point.

Sooner or later the people devoting their lives to griping about it are going to realize this is just the new normal and lean into it.

Not so sure. Looking at the audience that is actually taking part in Combinators, it definitely a very small group. The real question is "Does the small group make them enough money to justify the effort to maintain it and overcome the bad press from those that don't take part?" Only they can answer that question, but if it doesn't, v26 will likely see some significant changes if not total removal. They did it with PT+ and can do it again. I wouldn't assume "yet" that Combinators are here to stay.

[Fabtron7]

[QUOTE=HRBaker;5108249]

Originally Posted by Fabtron7

Not so sure. Looking at the audience that is actually taking part in Combinators, it definitely a very small group. The real question is "Does the small group make them enough money to justify the effort to maintain it and overcome the bad press from those that don't take part?" Only they can answer that question, but if it doesn't, v26 will likely see some significant changes if not total removal. They did it with PT+ and can do it again. I wouldn't assume "yet" that Combinators are here to stay.

PT26 is a whole different story, I'm sure they'll shake it up (which is why these conversations still have a purpose). But for PT25 the best you might see are some tournaments that limit them.

[Tinkerman]

Originally Posted by Fabtron7

But for PT25 the best you might see are some tournaments that limit them.

Maybe increased drops?

[HRBaker]

Originally Posted by Tinkerman

Maybe increased drops?

Adding more of them would help the chances of upgrades without having to throw your collection of cards at it - but those who have invested heavily in the current rules would be pretty upset - and I couldn't blame them.

[Fabtron7]

Originally Posted by Tinkerman

Maybe increased drops?

I think the only way to counter it without blowing it up is to add more lateral options to the 'meta' cards. The biggest issue right now (in the lower levels) is that people are all bidding the same small handful of cards to high heaven because they're clearly better than all the other options. If there are more options for cards at a similar power level it will reduced their costs across the board and make them more accessible to everyone. It also gives people a lot more options as to what they can use for combinator food.

Buuuuuut that'll take some heavy curation on the part of OOTP and means they have to be constantly keeping their finger on the pulse of what the best playing cards are.

But they should be doing that anyway.... right?

[Tinkerman]

Originally Posted by HRBaker

Adding more of them would help the chances of upgrades without having to throw your collection of cards at it - but those who have invested heavily in the current rules would be pretty upset - and I couldn't blame them.

Using my own returns as a rough guide, and factoring in the PTCS rewards, some of the teams that have "invested heavily" have made 'gazillions' already. I don't really think they should be upset about anything .

[Tinkerman]

Originally Posted by Fabtron7

I think the only way to counter it without blowing it up is to add more lateral options to the 'meta' cards. The biggest issue right now (in the lower levels) is that people are all bidding the same small handful of cards to high heaven because they're clearly better than all the other options. If there are more options for cards at a similar power level it will reduced their costs across the board and make them more accessible to everyone. It also gives people a lot more options as to what they can use for combinator food.

Buuuuuut that'll take some heavy curation on the part of OOTP and means they have to be constantly keeping their finger on the pulse of what the best playing cards are.

But they should be doing that anyway.... right?

Maybe a few meta-setting SEs and LEs are around the corner?

[Kushiel]

Originally Posted by Fabtron7

Combinators aren’t changing (at least not this version of the game) people have already invested too heavily into them for OOTP to claw it back at this point.

Sooner or later the people devoting their lives to griping about it are going to realize this is just the new normal and lean into it.

I hardly think spending 5 minutes a day to voice our opinions is devoting our lives to griping. I don't apologize for you not liking our opinions. If they keep caving to high pocket players, they will lose low pocket players.

Even WOW found out that 15 million subscribers were difficult to hold on to. As they catered to the dungeon crowds, they started losing PvP players. Then they started making PVP areas with all kinds of cool things. The casual player that liked to just play the open world started asking what about us? Blizzard pretty much said, "Who?." The slow exodus became millions leaving.

"It reminds me of wild hickory nuts." - Euell Gibbons

[HRBaker]

The danger, of course, is the 75% of players on the bottom of the pyramid will simply stop playing - thus 75% of the teams are "dead in the water" so to speak... cannon fodder for everyone else.

What results in that scenario is a very unrealistic competition; 150-12 seasons with the only REAL competition coming from the Perfect Team playoffs.

Then comes the drop in Twitch viewership, and fewer people willing to spend the effort to create interesting programs.

Bottom line is (IMO anyways) is you have to keep the bottom 75% happy in some way to keep the kenetic energy going, or sooner than later things will slow to a stop.

That said, the above few sentences probably sounds like I'm being very critical of PT as it stands, but it's my heart-felt wish that the game not only continues - but gets better, and the drive to make bigger profits at the cost of 75% of the customer base just doesn't feel promising.

(2 cents)

[robadge]

Originally Posted by HRBaker

The danger, of course, is the 75% of players on the bottom of the pyramid will simply stop playing - thus 75% of the teams are "dead in the water" so to speak... cannon fodder for everyone else.

What results in that scenario is a very unrealistic competition; 150-12 seasons with the only REAL competition coming from the Perfect Team playoffs.

Then comes the drop in Twitch viewership, and fewer people willing to spend the effort to create interesting programs.

Bottom line is (IMO anyways) is you have to keep the bottom 75% happy in some way to keep the kenetic energy going, or sooner than later things will slow to a stop.

That said, the above few sentences probably sounds like I'm being very critical of PT as it stands, but it's my heart-felt wish that the game not only continues - but gets better, and the drive to make bigger profits at the cost of 75% of the customer base just doesn't feel promising.

(2 cents)

Very much agree with your sentiments here and I am part of this 75%.

Been playing since OOTP22. I'd describe myself as a 'free to play' casual/competitive PT player. I don't maintain spreadsheets or anything, but I'll grind tourneys and try to qualify for PTCS because it's fun.

However, this PT season is by far the least enjoyable I have ever experienced and that is due in large part do to the combinator/team chemistry situation. I am not putting any blame on the Devs for how things turned out. I actually applaud them for making the changes and trying to add new elements to the game. I was super excited about the changes at the start of the season.

With a couple months in the books now, though, it's clear that combinators are strictly a pay to win mechanic and the tournament scene is a complete train wreck. I qualified for the open, wildcard and weekly drafts last PTCS period and I'm trending towards doing the same this period, but I am going to take a month off from the game after that. I'm just exhausted from slamming my head into the same fully maxed out meta combinator teams over and over again.

It's clear that there are two games being played out here and unless OOTP acknowledges that and starts providing 'no combinator' daily/weekly tournaments and PTCS options I'm not investing anymore time in this game. If after a month something has been done to make this game more enjoyable for the 'free to play' crowd I'll come back. If not, I'm done with OOTP25. My time is valuable and your game is just not fun at the moment.

Like I said, not putting blame on the Devs for the state PT is in, but I will certainly blame them for not doing anything to change it. I would reiterate that I do appreciate all the efforts put in by the Dev team to make OOTP a great product that keeps people (like me) coming back year after year and I hope those efforts continue.

I would also say, I greatly appreciate the efforts of all the affiliate content creators and the official channel. The opportunity to get packs through twitch drops and other in stream promotions, the guidance they give to newer players, all great things. They have truly fostered a wonderful community here for OOTP players.

I'm not in the discord/s and I'm sure this has all been said before, but here it is again for anyone that cares.

[dishnet34]

For what it's worth, I will say the devs have had multiple discussions about Combinators and their impact on the tournament scene in the past few weeks, and have been investigating multiple options regarding their usage in tournaments. If there are any changes with regards to that, it all comes down to the technological side and how to code things in (Basically, if there are changes, don't expect them to happen immediately).

Personally speaking, I'd also like to see some no- or low-combinator tournaments being offered or combinator-level-cap tournaments as well, but I think they'd be rolled out in small doses first if they do theoretically happen.

[Hwilensky]

The combinator cards were a horrible idea. The game was alway about making money, I get it, but if you had some skill you could compete, especially in tournaments. Now it has nothing to do with skill, and everything about money. Tired of losing to players who have deep pockets, and can have a roster of 26 level 5 combinators. There might be some outliers, but for the most part not. You can have all the skill in the world, but you can not compete with those players, and because of that the rich will keep getting richer..

I can not imagine them being able to recode an entire game to separate combinators from non combinators for tournaments. If they do, more power to them, but I doubt it. And by the announcement the other day that they are "lowering" the starting price of combinators...BIG DEAL. The meta cards will still cost a fortune and the others....who cares..it will still cost a fortune to combinate them. Thats just my two cents.

[robadge]

This is great to hear, Dish! I think we all want the same thing, which is tournaments for players of all levels where they feel like they actually have a chance to win. I don't think that exists currently, but I have faith the Devs will get it right eventually.

Point taken on the effort involved. I'm sure we all have opinions on things that can be improved with combinator mechanics, but that feels more like an OOTP26 thing and that's fine. Just adding some comb free tourneys with more evenly distributed payouts for the top four spots would go a long way as 'hot fix' for improving the current situation and FTP legion morale.

Great job with the TWIPT showdowns, as always!