Why Deadball? And other thoughts...

[bdawg]

Throwing this out there because I'm getting to that point in the OOTP year where I'm losing interest and I need something to complain about

Anyone else annoyed that the game has assigned good value to Deadball era hitters? (at least some that perform decently well in Gold and below). Nobody from the Deadball era should have 100+ power. I scientifically understand trying to mathematically normalize era performance, but realistically it should never happen. There are only a couple of players who emerged from the Deadball era into the 1920s and actually started hitting for power - Babe Ruth of course comes to mind. But it's more an extreme outlier in the stats pool than the norm. Folks like Tris Speaker, etc. should not have >100 power, as even in the 1920s they never hit for power.

Other thoughts: Why the heck is the Lou Boudreau bbref card so good offensively? The guy only hit .300 twice. Also, why is there no great Ty Cobb card? The guy only had 3 .400+ seasons and flirted with .400 another 5 seasons.

Just throwing it out there that I think you'd have a lot more people who get excited about the game if the great players they historically know and love were actually great in the game. The fact that if I start Ted Williams and he only hits .245 just wrecks any of that childhood awe that I would love to feel when playing Perfect Team. I get that you have to keep it fresh and keep adding new cards weekly, and they are almost always better than the previous cards, but there should be some balance.

Just my 2-cents.

[Hwilensky]

Originally Posted by bdawg

Throwing this out there because I'm getting to that point in the OOTP year where I'm losing interest and I need something to complain about

Anyone else annoyed that the game has assigned good value to Deadball era hitters? (at least some that perform decently well in Gold and below). Nobody from the Deadball era should have 100+ power. I scientifically understand trying to mathematically normalize era performance, but realistically it should never happen. There are only a couple of players who emerged from the Deadball era into the 1920s and actually started hitting for power - Babe Ruth of course comes to mind. But it's more an extreme outlier in the stats pool than the norm. Folks like Tris Speaker, etc. should not have >100 power, as even in the 1920s they never hit for power.

Other thoughts: Why the heck is the Lou Boudreau bbref card so good offensively? The guy only hit .300 twice. Also, why is there no great Ty Cobb card? The guy only had 3 .400+ seasons and flirted with .400 another 5 seasons.

Just throwing it out there that I think you'd have a lot more people who get excited about the game if the great players they historically know and love were actually great in the game. The fact that if I start Ted Williams and he only hits .245 just wrecks any of that childhood awe that I would love to feel when playing Perfect Team. I get that you have to keep it fresh and keep adding new cards weekly, and they are almost always better than the previous cards, but there should be some balance.

Just my 2-cents.

Three words...To Make Money....

[PunishedF2P]

Originally Posted by bdawg

Anyone else annoyed that the game has assigned good value to Deadball era hitters? (at least some that perform decently well in Gold and below). Nobody from the Deadball era should have 100+ power. I scientifically understand trying to mathematically normalize era performance, but realistically it should never happen. There are only a couple of players who emerged from the Deadball era into the 1920s and actually started hitting for power - Babe Ruth of course comes to mind. But it's more an extreme outlier in the stats pool than the norm. Folks like Tris Speaker, etc. should not have >100 power, as even in the 1920s they never hit for power.

I don't have a problem with it as far as the specific example goes - most of the deadball cards don't actually have a lot of power, but the ones that do would probably have cracked 40+ homers with the modern baseball and bat and fields. Hitting 10 HRs in those old ballparks with that bat and ball they used took a lot of power, that's why Tris Speaker led the MLB in 1912 with only 10 HRs. They were strong, they had power, it was just a different game with different tools. I like the normalization over eras myself.

I would like to see an endgame Babe Ruth card; every year they release a Babe Ruth that is one of the best card in the game or a little while, but I don't remember getting one that stays on the roster at the end of the cycle - and they should give us that, since he's arguably the greatest hitter of all-time, certainly has the greatest hitting seasons/stats of all-time along with Bonds (who they don't have the license for).

Originally Posted by bdawg

Other thoughts: Why the heck is the Lou Boudreau bbref card so good offensively? The guy only hit .300 twice. Also, why is there no great Ty Cobb card? The guy only had 3 .400+ seasons and flirted with .400 another 5 seasons.

As far as Boudreau goes, like most cards, it's for a specific year - 1948 - and he was an offensive monster that year. He hit .355 with 18 HRs, 6 triples, 34 doubles and 98 walks and won MVP. And small correction - he hit over .300 four times ('44, '45, '47 and '48) including a batting title in '44.

Concerning Ty Cobb - for the last three years (PT21-PT23), there has been an 'endgame' Ty Cobb card released near the end of the cycle that was basically a must have to compete at the high levels. I am sure we'll be getting another one this year, so the beast-mode Ty Cobb card is definitely coming.

Originally Posted by bdawg

The fact that if I start Ted Williams and he only hits .245 just wrecks any of that childhood awe that I would love to feel when playing Perfect Team.

When that Ted Williams first dropped, and for a significant time after, he was the BEST hitter in the game against right-handed pitching. Won an MVP for me with 6.8 WAR one year, and had over 5 WAR two other years, over 4 WAR several more years (which is very good for a hitter with no defense in PT). And that was all in Diamond League, so against pretty elite competition.

There still might be another Ted Williams on the way for the endgame, wouldn't surprise me at all. Like you said, the new sets that come out have to continue to raise the bar or else there would be no reason to get them.

Not to say that I don't understand where you're coming from on all this, but I do think these are reasonable explanations for why things are the way they are in the game.

[bdawg]

Respect your opinion about normalizing the Deadball era, but in the same breath I disagree and wholeheartedly disagree about Speaker. Speaker played well into the 20s when Ruth and others started knocking the socks off the ball. But Speaker's top HR years? 17, 12, and 11 HRs. Harry Heilman hit more HRs and his best card has like 73 power. (Then there are guys like Ken Williams who destroyed the ball in 22 and 23, and OOTP makes a card for his 1926 performance? Ugh.) Point is, Speaker should not be >100 power period. He never proved he could hit that well for the 9 years he played in the live ball era. I'm okay with some normalization (Ty Cobb shouldn't be a 200 contact even if his stats show he probably should be) but not to the level that has been done for Speaker.

Another thought - It's great to love a game. It's also great to hear critical opinions of that game, because it can lead to improving the game. It's usually not so great to love the game so much that you try to explain-away and shut down the critical opinions of others. Why do we have to wait for an "end game" version of the cards? For 8 months of this game we've endured top cards like Gary LaVelle, Robin Roberts, Ted Simmons - I think the devs need to hear critical suggestions that these players are boring. Where's Nolan Ryan? Where's Ty Cobb? Where is Yastrzemski? Why is Musial's near triple-crown season card pretty much unplayable in Diamond?

[PunishedF2P]

Originally Posted by bdawg

It's usually not so great to love the game so much that you try to explain-away and shut down the critical opinions of others.

I don't think I was doing that.

As I said, I understand where you're coming from. I gave reasonable explanations for why things are the way they are, however far from ideal that might be - the simplest of which is, the game wouldn't be sustainable if they released endgame cards too early. The point of PT is to continually update and improve your team and roster - even if it was completely F2P, it would still have to do something like this to maintain engagement.

If you look through my comments, you'll see plenty of critical ones. The same way I can be critical, I can equally give praise for what I enjoy about it. I wouldn't play it and put the time into it if it wasn't a very enjoyable sim for me, despite its flaws.

[Kushiel]

Originally Posted by bdawg

Respect your opinion about normalizing the Deadball era, but in the same breath I disagree and wholeheartedly disagree about Speaker. Speaker played well into the 20s when Ruth and others started knocking the socks off the ball. But Speaker's top HR years? 17, 12, and 11 HRs. Harry Heilman hit more HRs and his best card has like 73 power. (Then there are guys like Ken Williams who destroyed the ball in 22 and 23, and OOTP makes a card for his 1926 performance? Ugh.) Point is, Speaker should not be >100 power period. He never proved he could hit that well for the 9 years he played in the live ball era. I'm okay with some normalization (Ty Cobb shouldn't be a 200 contact even if his stats show he probably should be) but not to the level that has been done for Speaker.

Another thought - It's great to love a game. It's also great to hear critical opinions of that game, because it can lead to improving the game. It's usually not so great to love the game so much that you try to explain-away and shut down the critical opinions of others. Why do we have to wait for an "end game" version of the cards? For 8 months of this game we've endured top cards like Gary LaVelle, Robin Roberts, Ted Simmons - I think the devs need to hear critical suggestions that these players are boring. Where's Nolan Ryan? Where's Ty Cobb? Where is Yastrzemski? Why is Musial's near triple-crown season card pretty much unplayable in Diamond?

You can't reason with apologists. They will try to explain away every concern that you raise. The truth is that this game gets further away from baseball and closer to LaLa Land every year. Just look at the cards and you see that Joe Feces the Rag Man outperforms all the true great players from history.

[bailey]

I don't care what name is on the card. It's all about the ratings and keeping up with the Joneses.

[PunishedF2P]

Originally Posted by Kushiel

You can't reason with apologists. They will try to explain away every concern that you raise. The truth is that this game gets further away from baseball and closer to LaLa Land every year. Just look at the cards and you see that Joe Feces the Rag Man outperforms all the true great players from history.

You can't reason with haters. They will complain and moan about everything no matter how reasonable of an explanation there is.

Shrug.

[Kushiel]

I thought everybody here loves baseball. I didn't realize we had any haters. What we have are people concerned with the health of the PT side of the game. That is love, not hate. I agree with many of things that you bring up from time to time. But I will not pretend that everything is peachy dandy. It is not!

A few big spenders can't keep the game afloat if we keep having less teams that we see yearly. Whales have to have plankton to survive or they will develop a new food source. If the plankton continue the path to extinction, how long before the whales follow?

The thing is, not everything in PT is perfect no matter the name Perfect Team. If we bury our heads in the sand and pretend that all is well, then we are hastening the reckoning.

We are on a bad path that is similar to a country flooding their economy with more printed money. If you don't have the gold to back that currency, then at some point the country will implode. Dreaming up these absolutely silly stats for marginal stars at the expense of the truly great players seems to be a recipe for disaster to many players.

All this being said, I wonder if any devs actually read this forum anymore. It is a true shame that Rob has to come see what is going on the Official OOTP-PT Forum and then pass it to the devs as we have seen all too often.

Edit: Now, I know somebody will quickly remind me that devs are busy getting the new game ready. I understand. However, they seem to have plenty of time for Discord.

[PunishedF2P]

Originally Posted by Kushiel

I thought everybody here loves baseball. I didn't realize we had any haters. What we have are people concerned with the health of the PT side of the game. That is love, not hate. I agree with many of things that you bring up from time to time. But I will not pretend that everything is peachy dandy. It is not!

A few big spenders can't keep the game afloat if we keep having less teams that we see yearly. Whales have to have plankton to survive or they will develop a new food source. If the plankton continue the path to extinction, how long before the whales follow?

The thing is, not everything in PT is perfect no matter the name Perfect Team. If we bury our heads in the sand and pretend that all is well, then we are hastening the reckoning.

We are on a bad path that is similar to a country flooding their economy with more printed money. If you don't have the gold to back that currency, then at some point the country will implode. Dreaming up these absolutely silly stats for marginal stars at the expense of the truly great players seems to be a recipe for disaster to many players.

All this being said, I wonder if any devs actually read this forum anymore. It is a true shame that Rob has to come see what is going on the Official OOTP-PT Forum and then pass it to the devs as we have seen all too often.

Edit: Now, I know somebody will quickly remind me that devs are busy getting the new game ready. I understand. However, they seem to have plenty of time for Discord.

You can't see that my comment is just a mirror of yours? lol. C'mon now.

"You can't reason with apologists" - I took the time to explain, cordially and respectfully, the reasons I thought some of these issues in the game exist. I'm not an apologist, and I can certainly be reasoned with. I don't care for the hyperbole.

Hence, I responded in kind: "You can't reason with haters."

I don't actually think you're a hater, any more than I'm an apologist.

[rburgh]

Should certainly have 100 power, or more. He was a true power hitter in the deadball era, combining for 62 HR from 1913 through 1915 and hitting a total of 118 HR from 1912 through 1920.

[HRBaker]

Originally Posted by kushiel

i thought everybody here loves baseball. I didn't realize we had any haters. What we have are people concerned with the health of the pt side of the game. That is love, not hate. I agree with many of things that you bring up from time to time. But i will not pretend that everything is peachy dandy. It is not!

A few big spenders can't keep the game afloat if we keep having less teams that we see yearly. Whales have to have plankton to survive or they will develop a new food source. If the plankton continue the path to extinction, how long before the whales follow?

The thing is, not everything in pt is perfect no matter the name perfect team. if we bury our heads in the sand and pretend that all is well, then we are hastening the reckoning.

We are on a bad path that is similar to a country flooding their economy with more printed money. If you don't have the gold to back that currency, then at some point the country will implode. Dreaming up these absolutely silly stats for marginal stars at the expense of the truly great players seems to be a recipe for disaster to many players.

All this being said, i wonder if any devs actually read this forum anymore. It is a true shame that rob has to come see what is going on the official ootp-pt forum and then pass it to the devs as we have seen all too often.

Edit: Now, i know somebody will quickly remind me that devs are busy getting the new game ready. I understand. However, they seem to have plenty of time for discord.

this.

[Fabtron7]

Originally Posted by Kushiel

Edit: Now, I know somebody will quickly remind me that devs are busy getting the new game ready. I understand. However, they seem to have plenty of time for Discord.

Nicolino and Sporer come to the Discord a lot. Most likely because it's easy and not a form of communication that was popular 30 years go.

The actual developers on the other hand don't come within 1000 miles of the discord.

[LeeD]

Originally Posted by bailey

I don't care what name is on the card. It's all about the ratings and keeping up with the Joneses.

While this is certainly true of PT as is...SHOULD it be this way? C'mon. We can all appreciate that Framber Valdez is a pretty good pitcher who had a pretty good season, but is he better than 1972 Steve Carlton? The game says he is, and that's total BS.

Steve Carlton was godlike in 1972. I was there. I saw two of those games at Veterans' Stadium and watched a lot of the others on TV, and I'm here to tell you that Carlton's '72 season will be remembered long after Framber Valdez has become a footnote in Astros history. The Philadelphia Bulletin tossed its back page ad revenue aside from some time in July until the end of the season, replacing those ads with a huge picture of Carlton in motion and a caption that read "Take Heart, Phillies Fans. Lefty Pitches Tonight." That's fortune and fame, and that's baseball history...

which is something Perfect Team is supposed to be celebrating. Instead, we get a week or three's worth of use out of Carlton before he's been surpassed by a large handful of pitchers who only dreamt they could be that good. Same applies to Koufax and a lot of others whose cards are here and gone with every episode of This Week in Perfect Team.

Sh**, Valdez even has a better Stamina rating than Carlton, who tossed 346 innings, had 30 complete games, and faced 543 more batters than Valdez.

How many is that 543? There were only 87 major league pitchers who faced more than 543 batters in 2023, and that is how many more batters Carlton faced. Carlton's WAR in '72? 12 point friggin' 1. Valdez? Just a bit lower at 3.2, like, a full MVP season less.

It's a joke.

/rant

[bailey]

I stand by my original comment. Baseball achievements are about on par with that of Willis Gibson.

[LeeD]

Originally Posted by bailey

I stand by my original comment. Baseball achievements are about on par with that of Willis Gibson.

Another rare and noteworthy achievement, if not one witnessed by thousands on a nightly basis. Now, imagine Youtube starting a Perfect Tetris app where players who only manged to get through Level 20 are rated as being able to break the game faster than Willis did, complete with play-throughs and statistics.

[Ty Cobb]

Why IS there no great card for me? I'm a good guy...

[LeeD]

Originally Posted by Ty Cobb

Why IS there no great card for me? I'm a good guy...

Good guy or not, your alter-ego deserves a great card because he defined the game for the better part of a generation. As it stands now, there are what, 287 better center fielders in PT24 instead of maybe...if we're generous...a dozen? Throw out his rookie season, when he was 18 years old, and Cobb never hit below .316. He's Number 2 in career JAWS and WAR7, behind only Willie Mays. His best modern comp is Mike Trout, who clearly should be a first-ballot Hall of Famer.

This is likely something that PT will fix between now and end of cycle, but it would be nice to have a real peak Cobb before everyone but the hardcore has drifted off to play Madden or Call of Duty.

[Ty Cobb]

Presses thanks button repeatedly...wait, what the...

Thanks, Lee. I wholeheartedly agree. For what it's worth, I have not played Madden Football since Version 1. I've never played COD.

[PunishedF2P]

Originally Posted by LeeD

Good guy or not

Ty Cobb was awesome. They've just told a bunch of sensationalized stories about him and blackwashed his legacy for whatever reason. Basically, acting like him being a racist is some kind of big deal lmao. He was born in 1886. Everyone was 'racist' back then. Woopty-doo.