Recalc question

[David Watts]

It's less than a month from the release of OOTP24 and I just now noticed something in OOTP23 that I don't think I've ever seen before. I had to get a new computer a month or so back, so 23 is the only version of the game I have installed.

On the historical page there is the usual option to select 1, 3 or 5 year recalc. Above that there's the usual checkbox for recalc player rating each year. What I've never ever noticed before is the box right below it that asks if we want the game to recalc player potential ratings each year. ??? When did this get added to the game? How does this work with the option we choose during setup(base potential ratings on entire career, peak seasons, remaining peak season, or remaining seasons)?

[Garlon]

If you use “selected recalc period” your player ratings and potential will always be the same.

If you want to see their trajectory then use remaining seasons.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Garlon

If you use “selected recalc period” your player ratings and potential will always be the same.

If you want to see their trajectory then use remaining seasons.

Thanks.

Thinking I will have to turn ratings off completely if I'm going to continue to play using historical players. Players are no longer playing the positions they played in real life. Now, if the team needs someone to play 2B, you get Adrian Beltre at 2B with a red 1 rating. Teams first baseman need a rest, let's just plug the a guy rated for 3B in at 1B and let him play with a red 1. That guy might become a red 15 at 1B by the end of the season and then recalc can turn that 15 back to non existence.

If I turn ratings off I can probably just make believe the players are qualified to play the positions.

[Garlon]

For fielding ratings the recalculate will adjust their component ratings for arm, range, error and test stuff but players should be building experience at new positions that will continue each season.

If you have a 3B you can put them at 1B to gain experience and they will get a rating above 1 that holds in subsequent seasons. However, if that player moved from 3B to the outfield exclusively in sone seasons of recalc then they will not gavevtheir component infield fielding ratings in those seasons.

So as long as you have a player who is eligible at sone position in the infield then you can try to move them around. Same applies to outfield positions.

I think Markus set this up very nicely.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Garlon

For fielding ratings the recalculate will adjust their component ratings for arm, range, error and test stuff but players should be building experience at new positions that will continue each season.

If you have a 3B you can put them at 1B to gain experience and they will get a rating above 1 that holds in subsequent seasons. However, if that player moved from 3B to the outfield exclusively in sone seasons of recalc then they will not gavevtheir component infield fielding ratings in those seasons.

So as long as you have a player who is eligible at sone position in the infield then you can try to move them around. Same applies to outfield positions.

I think Markus set this up very nicely.

Would be great if there was a way to turn this off. My pet peeve is players playing out of position. I don't want to watch Cal Ripkin play 2B. Ozzie Smith play 2B. Right now in my opinion it's being used by the AI way too much. Every other game I'm seeing guys with horrible ratings playing positions they never played in real life. In a league I was playing without recalc, the Orioles signed a 30 year old Ozzie Smith. They already had Brendon Ryan a player with superior defensive ratings to Smith at SS, so Smith was sharing time at 2B with Bill Spiers and Dickie Thon. This was with recalc off, but that's probably the way to play now that a player's history isn't really a factor.

[Garlon]

There is a setting for base position on in the menus.

[David Watts]

I know I sound like a whiner, but like I said the out of position thing is a huge pet peeve of mine. One of the main reasons stuff like this bothers me is, once it's in the game, the AI uses it way too much. Just like the 2 way player option. Instead of it being used in emergency situations, you get the AI constructing the roster without fielding even in mind. Then again, maybe a red 1 means nothing and if I just turn fielding ratings off or use the small on field labels, I can just make believe.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Garlon

There is a setting for base position on in the menus.

I've tried imported season and 3 years. Seeing the same results with both. As usual with a computer game, the AI is playing guys out of position like crazy. Because it can, it does.

[David Watts]

Even tried it last night with 5 year recalc, development off, retire according to history. Fielding based on imported season. 1947. Same results. The Reds trotted out a red1 Grady Hatton at 1B and a red1 Virgil Stallcup at 3B. This was in the same game. Coaching off as well.

[David Watts]

Game one of the night. Brooklyn starts Dixie Walker in LF. He is rated a red 2. Walker is a orange 28 in RF. Pete Reiser starts in RF rated a red 7. Reiser is rated a green 56 in LF and a yellow 42 in CF. Arky Vaughn starts at 1B with no rating whatsoever. Vaughn is a green 51 in LF and a yellow 43 at 3B.

[David Watts]

Game 2 of the night, Reiser stays in RF, he did jump to a red 10. Dixie Walker stays in LF red 3.

[David Watts]

Game 3 of the night. Tigers start an unrated Al Dark at 2B. I know he ends up playing there in real life very briefly. But that's the future and the point is he is unrated.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Even tried it last night with 5 year recalc, development off, retire according to history. Fielding based on imported season. 1947. Same results. The Reds trotted out a red1 Grady Hatton at 1B and a red1 Virgil Stallcup at 3B. This was in the same game. Coaching off as well.

I don't know if it's the same issue or not, but fielding based upon imported season does not work, and hasn't for some time. For example, start a historical game in, say, the mid-60's & let it run thru the late 80's. Among things, you'll find that left-handed Carl Yastrzemski plays occasional middle infield and 3rd base throughout his career, presumably because he played 12 games at SS in the minors in 1959... and will be a starter at either 2B or 3B for multiple seasons in mid-70's because IRL he played 31 error-filled games at third in 1973... (I believe the 12 games at SS only come into play if you enable historical minors... but still.)... And you'll also find that Brian Downing continues to spend significant time behind the dish into the late 80's even though IRL he did not play a single game behind the plate after 1981.

This has been reported as a bug so hopefully it will be fixed for v24.

[Garlon]

I really never see these issues in my games, and I am always looking at fielding results. Maybe someone convinced the developers to make some changes that caused problems with OOTP23, but Markus had fielding working perfectly for OOTP22.

I do not know how you guys are setting up your games either to get these things to occur. Bottom line though is if a team has no other options, they will have to put someone at a position.

Brian Downing will not have rating at catcher after a certain point with recalc and will have to move to another position.

Why is Virgil Stallcup getting into games in 1947 when he only played 2 innings? What are his batting ratings? What version of OOTP are you playing?

[Garlon]

With OOTP23 I started a 1947 season with fielding based on current season.

Virgil Stallcup ratings on the 100 scale:

Infield Range: 67
Infield Error: 59
Infield Arm: 59
Turn DP: 61

Position Ratings
Shortstop: 50

Experience at Shortstop: 200

This is exactly the way it is supposed to work.

In order to get a player to learn a new position in the infield, they need to have infield ratings and then need to gain experience at these other positions.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the fielding ratings.


Grady Hatton

Infield Range: 45
Infield Error: 40
Infield Arm: 62
Turn DP: 33

Third Base: 36

Experience at 3B: 200


In 1947, the Reds were the worst defensive team in the NL and the Dodgers were the best in terms of defensive efficiency.

Take a look at their starting position players:

C (Ability/Arm)

Ray Lamanno 53/41
Bruce Edwards 42/48


Infielders (Range/Error/Arm/Turn DP)

1B
Babe Young 27/27/25/24
Jackie Robinson 37/24/34/34

2B
Benny Zientara 54/56/41/57
Eddie Stanky 52/71/33/70

SS
Eddie Miller 64/69/55/53
Pee Wee Reese 72/61/63/75

3B
Grady Hatton 45/40/62/33
Spider Jorgensen 48/45/64/50


Outfield (Range/Error/Arm)

LF
Augie Galan 44/58/15
Pete Reser 66/55/50

CF
Bert Haas 70/49/50
Carl Furillo 94/56/66

RF
Frank Baumholtz 46/51/69
Dixie Walker 42/36/38


Defensively, the Reds have an edge at C and RF, but the Dodgers have an advantage at 1B, 2B, 3B, SS, LF, and CF.


Reds bench with at least 100 innings at a position:

C: Ray Mueller 75/67
IF: Boby Adams 48/50/30/56
IF: Kermit Wahl 48/46/64/42
OF: Eddie Lukon 47/44/50
OF: Tommy Tatum 70/52/50
OF: Clyde Volmer 76/58/44


Dodgers bench with at least 100 innings at a position:

C: Gil Hodges 44/47
IF: Cookie Lavagetto 47/47/63/43
IF: Stan Rojek 66/60/57/62
OF: Arky Vaughan 47/45/50
OF: Duke Snider 68/57/46
OF: Al Gionfriddo 47/46/50


With real historical transactions and lineups, Stallcup (real 2 innings at SS) played 23.1 innings at SS and Hatton (real 1170 innings at 3B) played 1187 innings at 3B, but neither played any other position.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Garlon

With OOTP23 I started a 1947 season with fielding based on current season.

Virgil Stallcup ratings on the 100 scale:

Infield Range: 67
Infield Error: 59
Infield Arm: 59
Turn DP: 61

Position Ratings
Shortstop: 50

Experience at Shortstop: 200

This is exactly the way it is supposed to work.

In order to get a player to learn a new position in the infield, they need to have infield ratings and then need to gain experience at these other positions.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the fielding ratings.


Grady Hatton

Infield Range: 45
Infield Error: 40
Infield Arm: 62
Turn DP: 33

Third Base: 36

Experience at 3B: 200


In 1947, the Reds were the worst defensive team in the NL and the Dodgers were the best in terms of defensive efficiency.

Take a look at their starting position players:

C (Ability/Arm)

Ray Lamanno 53/41
Bruce Edwards 42/48


Infielders (Range/Error/Arm/Turn DP)

1B
Babe Young 27/27/25/24
Jackie Robinson 37/24/34/34

2B
Benny Zientara 54/56/41/57
Eddie Stanky 52/71/33/70

SS
Eddie Miller 64/69/55/53
Pee Wee Reese 72/61/63/75

3B
Grady Hatton 45/40/62/33
Spider Jorgensen 48/45/64/50


Outfield (Range/Error/Arm)

LF
Augie Galan 44/58/15
Pete Reser 66/55/50

CF
Bert Haas 70/49/50
Carl Furillo 94/56/66

RF
Frank Baumholtz 46/51/69
Dixie Walker 42/36/38


Defensively, the Reds have an edge at C and RF, but the Dodgers have an advantage at 1B, 2B, 3B, SS, LF, and CF.


Reds bench with at least 100 innings at a position:

C: Ray Mueller 75/67
IF: Boby Adams 48/50/30/56
IF: Kermit Wahl 48/46/64/42
OF: Eddie Lukon 47/44/50
OF: Tommy Tatum 70/52/50
OF: Clyde Volmer 76/58/44


Dodgers bench with at least 100 innings at a position:

C: Gil Hodges 44/47
IF: Cookie Lavagetto 47/47/63/43
IF: Stan Rojek 66/60/57/62
OF: Arky Vaughan 47/45/50
OF: Duke Snider 68/57/46
OF: Al Gionfriddo 47/46/50


With real historical transactions and lineups, Stallcup (real 2 innings at SS) played 23.1 innings at SS and Hatton (real 1170 innings at 3B) played 1187 innings at 3B, but neither played any other position.

Not playing the game using real transactions and lineups. 5 year recalc, development off. 54/67 for hitters, 17/14 pitchers. I turned coaching off. Retire according to history was on, but I don't know why that would matter. Started league and watched a few games.

Look at my examples from the Brooklyn game. The idea that Brooklyn had zero options can be dismissed by simply realizing the two outfielders playing out of position Walker in LF and Reiser in RF could just swap positions and be playing positions they are rated to play. Vaughn gets played at 1B without a rating for the position, but has ratings to play LF and 3b. Jackie Robinson was not tired and had 1B ratings. So, it's not a matter of the Dodgers not having options when they played these guys out of position. It's the game trying to be too cute, by teaching the world to sing in the form of everyone should be able to play every position.

I love the fact that the game doesn't freeze up and say start over if the team doesn't have an option at a position. I would much rather it jam a non qualified player into the position. But, that's not what's happening here. I'm seeing guys playing out of position just for the sake of doing so. If ratings mean nothing and a red 1 is just as good as a green 60, then I guess this doesn't matter, but it sure has a video game feel to it.

As for your real transaction/real lineups example. Of course, Stallcup and Hatton didn't play out position. OOTP wasn't creating the lineups. My complaints above weren't that Stallcup or Hatton were being used at some point in a game and being inserted in positions they did not play.
My complaint is the game is starting guys sometimes on pretty regular basis at positions they never played and with horrible ratings. It's like the regular season is an extended version of spring training.

I reinstalled 22 the other night and it took me less than a handful of games to see players out of position. Maybe I need I should try 21

[David Watts]

One thing that I'm noticing is, the ratings must matter somewhat, as the AI is making defensive substitutions late in the game to get the out of position poorly rated guys out of the game.

[thehef]

I just ran a test...

OOTP 23
start year 1965; ran thru the 1991 season
no historical minors
import complete history
real stats
potential = remaining yrs
adj/wkn = 150-40-30-10
hist txns on; hist lineups & hist injuries off
no coaching or owner goals
injuries very low; no long term injuries
position player fatigue = high
no personalites or morale
base fielding on current season
pitcher stamina based on curr season
1-yr recalc
everything else is defaults (except for insignificant things like WPA graphs and saving game recaps...)

Carl Yastrzemski
year, games at 3B:
1973, 71
1974, 23
1975, 143
1976, 138
1978, 116
1979, 58
1980, 6
1981, 37
1982, 12
1983, 12

IRL, Yaz played 2 games at 3B in '64, 31 in '73

In every year above there were other options to play 3B, just like IRL. For example, in 1975, Rico Petrocelli (whom OOTP played at 2B 38 times, despite Rico not playing 2B at all IRL in '75), Juan Beniquez, Denny Doyle, Bob Heise, and Dick McAuliffe all played 3B IRL in 1975 and were available to the Red Sox most or all of that season in OOTP.

Brian Downing
year, games at C & 3B after 1981:
1982, 3, 2
1983, 0, 0
1984, 95, 1
1985, 88, 1
1986, 91, 0
1987, 13, 6
1988, 87, 2
1989, 98, 0
1990, 42, 6
1991, 87, 0

IRL, Downing did not catch a single game after 37 games behind the dish in 1981, and he only played 3B for 8 games in 1973... Obviously, there would've been other options - just as there were IRL - to play catcher on his teams during those years.

A couple others, without going into as many details:
Bill Russell plays handfuls of games at 2B every year from 1973 thru 1978, despite IRL not playing 2B at all between 1973 to 1983.
Tommy Davis plays significant numbers of games at 3B in '74, '75, '76 despite not playing the position at all IRL in those years...

Again, this is with 1-year recalc and fielding ratings based upon current season... There's a reason there's a bug report for this issue, and the above is it (And I know for a fact that this issue goes back to at least version 21.)

[David Watts]

My examples above were with a game using 5 year recalc. Therefore, Stallcup had the real life at bats/playing time to warrant him getting starts in the Reds lineup. What he didn't have is any real life playing time at 3B. What he clearly had was horrible ratings at 3B.

Of course, now I'm going to hear how I can't expect the game to play according to reality, when I'm playing using 5 year recalc and allowing trades and using free agency etc. etc. when the real issue is the AI trying to turn way too many players into Tony Phillips/Shane Halter.

[italyprof]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Would be great if there was a way to turn this off. My pet peeve is players playing out of position. I don't want to watch Cal Ripkin play 2B. Ozzie Smith play 2B. Right now in my opinion it's being used by the AI way too much. Every other game I'm seeing guys with horrible ratings playing positions they never played in real life. In a league I was playing without recalc, the Orioles signed a 30 year old Ozzie Smith. They already had Brendon Ryan a player with superior defensive ratings to Smith at SS, so Smith was sharing time at 2B with Bill Spiers and Dickie Thon. This was with recalc off, but that's probably the way to play now that a player's history isn't really a factor.

I agree with you. At setup, there is a setting to base positions on real life stat, instead of on AI ratings and assessment of ability. Your idea of just turning ratings off is intriguing, stats only as it were. I might go that route myself. Thanks David.