Will Phil Niekro ever become a starter?

[CraigBShuman]

I am playing the 1967 Season. Phil Niekro is listed as a RP with a stamina of 6.. Niekro didn't become a starter in real life until 1967. Over time, will Niekro become a SP or will he remain a RP in this saved game?

[omg_pwnasaurus]

Are you playing using the dev engine or recalc? I played through the 90's a few years ago and Mariano became a Cy Young award winner as a starter w/dev on. That's the beauty of the engine, who knows? That being said, I haven't figured out a way to successfully transform a reliever into a starter yet, even someone like Chuck Finley who had all the tools to start (varied high level pitch types, etc) except stamina and his stamina never increased despite trying to stretch him out in the minors and such. That was back in '21 version though so not sure if anything's changed with trying to turn a reliever into a starter or not.

[CraigBShuman]

I am using the OOTP dev engine.

[uruguru]

Originally Posted by CraigBShuman

I am using the OOTP dev engine.

Then he's RP forever.

Pitcher Stamina is probably the most poorly-designed aspect of the game's statistical model.

The engine treats it like an ability with no potential (like the various fielding ratings) so it just adjusts marginally as the pitcher develops.

The reality is that pitcher stamina is not calculated from some intrinsic player ability, but from use dictated by managerial decisions.

If a young Phil Niekro is the 6th-best pitcher on the Milwaukee Braves, he works from the bullpen and tosses 30-40 innings. That gives him a low stamina rating in the OOTP game, which helps create a consistent sim because it prevents players from using him as a starter.

But it's not because Niekro can't throw 300 innings. It's because he wasn't allowed to.

Why this is important is if you are playing as a manager and your starter gets injured, you can't move Niekro to the rotation. A real manager could, of course, but the way pitcher stamina works in OOTP means that you can't.

Historical sims that recalc every season help avoid this particular problem by resetting a pitcher's stamina rating to match however he was actually used in the real world. But it has drawbacks. For example, if the game recalcs Dennis Eckersley into a closer (b/c he moved to the bullpen irl), then you have to do it, too, even if you'd rather keep him in the rotation (or Craig Biggio behind the plate).

Simming with minor leagues helps avoid a lot of this because a lot of major-league relievers start in the minors so they enter into the sim with a higher stamina.

But every pitcher, at least before the 90s, had the actual stamina to start games. They just didn't because they weren't good enough to earn a spot in the rotation.

[LansdowneSt]

If not inclined to use recalcs, next time when creating a historic game try setting the pitcher stamina to be based on "Career". Otherwise, you need to go into Commissioner mode and edit it.

In addition to the stamina based on career, there is an option to base fielding on career too for the Biggio-type example.

[fredbeene]

Originally Posted by uruguru

Then he's RP forever.

Pitcher Stamina is probably the most poorly-designed aspect of the game's statistical model.

The engine treats it like an ability with no potential (like the various fielding ratings) so it just adjusts marginally as the pitcher develops.

The reality is that pitcher stamina is not calculated from some intrinsic player ability, but from use dictated by managerial decisions.

If a young Phil Niekro is the 6th-best pitcher on the Milwaukee Braves, he works from the bullpen and tosses 30-40 innings. That gives him a low stamina rating in the OOTP game, which helps create a consistent sim because it prevents players from using him as a starter.

But it's not because Niekro can't throw 300 innings. It's because he wasn't allowed to.

Why this is important is if you are playing as a manager and your starter gets injured, you can't move Niekro to the rotation. A real manager could, of course, but the way pitcher stamina works in OOTP means that you can't.

Historical sims that recalc every season help avoid this particular problem by resetting a pitcher's stamina rating to match however he was actually used in the real world. But it has drawbacks. For example, if the game recalcs Dennis Eckersley into a closer (b/c he moved to the bullpen irl), then you have to do it, too, even if you'd rather keep him in the rotation (or Craig Biggio behind the plate).

Simming with minor leagues helps avoid a lot of this because a lot of major-league relievers start in the minors so they enter into the sim with a higher stamina.

But every pitcher, at least before the 90s, had the actual stamina to start games. They just didn't because they weren't good enough to earn a spot in the rotation.

Why can't there be:
Stamina Starter
Stamina Reliver
(Strat used this successfully)
Runner Overall Raw Speed
Rate of stolen bases
(just thought i throw that in there)

[uruguru]

Originally Posted by LansdowneSt

If not inclined to use recalcs, next time when creating a historic game try setting the pitcher stamina to be based on "Career". Otherwise, you need to go into Commissioner mode and edit it.

In addition to the stamina based on career, there is an option to base fielding on career too for the Biggio-type example.

Yes, for fielding I use the "career" option to ensure that players can be moved around as needed.

Unfortunately, using the same option for pitcher stamina still comes up short (or else I wouldn't be complaining about it!).

The old adage that applies to historical sims before the 90s or so was that "relievers are really just pitchers that weren't good enough to start". Every pitcher came to the majors capable of starting, but there were only 4-5 starting jobs per team.

Lindy McDaniel is a good example. He played for 21 years, almost exclusively as a reliever, but still had a game where he threw 13 innings in relief. I would love an easy way to set a minimum stamina value for every pitcher. We do not handicap position players like this at all.