Defense!

[David Watts]

I understand a guy like Khalil Greene could probably move over and play 2B with less than a hiccup, so it shouldn't be that big a deal if I see him manning 2B in my random debut league. Problem is, Greene isn't rated to play 2B and OOTP is a game that depends on ratings to dictate a players performance. After one game, Greene gets a RED 1 rating at 2B. I don't know what the solution is, but I really think the game should value defense more, especially at SS, 2B, CF and C. In my other thread I talked about Danny Meyer getting starts at SS. I did learn after posting that Meyer actually had infield ratings to play 2B and 3B. OOTP was ignoring Meyer's rating at 2B. It was also ignoring the fact that the guy it was starting at 2B had an actual rating to play SS. So you end up with a team fielding Johnny Dung Beetle at the most important position and more than likely at the end of the year Meyer has a .710 fielding percentage with 56 error in 45 games.

To be honest, I'm not a huge fan of a historical game randomly assigning ratings to guys at positions they didn't play in real life. That to me is more of a fictional game type of thing. In the above example the team with Greene had other options on the roster to backup Brandon Phillips at 2B and it's not like Greene was ever a wizard at the plate But, I am using a combo of 5 year recalc and development, so that very well could be why Greene receives the red 1 after playing a game at 2B.

[Garlon]

Maybe use 3yr imports for defense.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Garlon

Maybe use 3yr imports for defense.

That's what I'm using.

[billyray1984]

Originally Posted by David Watts

I understand a guy like Khalil Greene could probably move over and play 2B with less than a hiccup, so it shouldn't be that big a deal if I see him manning 2B in my random debut league. Problem is, Greene isn't rated to play 2B and OOTP is a game that depends on ratings to dictate a players performance. After one game, Greene gets a RED 1 rating at 2B. I don't know what the solution is, but I really think the game should value defense more, especially at SS, 2B, CF and C. In my other thread I talked about Danny Meyer getting starts at SS. I did learn after posting that Meyer actually had infield ratings to play 2B and 3B. OOTP was ignoring Meyer's rating at 2B. It was also ignoring the fact that the guy it was starting at 2B had an actual rating to play SS. So you end up with a team fielding Johnny Dung Beetle at the most important position and more than likely at the end of the year Meyer has a .710 fielding percentage with 56 error in 45 games.

To be honest, I'm not a huge fan of a historical game randomly assigning ratings to guys at positions they didn't play in real life. That to me is more of a fictional game type of thing. In the above example the team with Greene had other options on the roster to backup Brandon Phillips at 2B and it's not like Greene was ever a wizard at the plate But, I am using a combo of 5 year recalc and development, so that very well could be why Greene receives the red 1 after playing a game at 2B.

A propos of nothing, since we use very different setups (I use no recalc and bump tcr way up) but Meyer was my backup SS for years and years and got his fair share of starts as he developped as a very surehanded SS with no bat. Just found it funny.

[David Watts]

I'm thinking this is probably due to my using a combo of recalc and development. But, you can't play random debut with development off, so I will just have to live with it.

[BMW]

I have noticed odd stuff in some minor league players. There are a ton of catcher/infielders and catcher/centerfielders. When I look at one of these guys at random, they may not actually have played some of those positions, especially centerfield.

Lavern Grace is one of them, he's rated at C and CF. No real evidence he ever played CF.

Glen Clark is another guy who probably shouldn't have a 50 at CF.

John Taylor actually did play C and SS in the minors (he was a terrible SS with an .821 fielding pct, but rates a 55 defense) - but he never played RF or OF in the real world, but he's rated there.

Carlos Morales seemed to be an outfielder for the Pirates in 1956, but in OOTP in 1962, he's rated at C and SS.

Gail Henley played nothing but OF in the real world, but somehow he's a C/CF in OOTP. (He's never actually played C in OOTP either, so these ratings don't seem to be from in-game usage nor do any of the ones before).

Michael Deaton was a pitcher and catcher in real life. Somehow he didn't get a pitcher defense rating, but he did at LF, CF and RF despite never playing OF.

[David Watts]

Okay, as I said before, I'm not huge on the game assigning historical players position ratings for positions they didn't play in real life. But, since I'm using recalc combined with development, it more of a me problem than a OOTP problem. Things got a lot better today though. I just checked Khalil Greene and he now has an orange 5 rating at 2B. If the game is going to do this type of thing, I'm glad to see the guy isn't locked into a Red 1 for all eternity of errortude. Now, the question is, will Greene keep the 2B rating, or will he have to start all over again during the offseason when recalc rolls in?

[David Watts]

Might be time to start trying out fictional leagues. Earlier today I was playing a random debut. I look up and Scott Rolen is starting games at shortstop. His ratings are flat out awful. First thing I'm going to try is playing with normal fatigue instead of high. Maybe the AI is having issues dealing with so many tired players. If I continue to see this, I figure I might as well play fictional. I'm not saying Rolen couldn't have played SS in real life. I am saying he didn't. I don't want to see Jim Edmonds catch.

Oh and I know random debut is somewhat fictional to begin with, but it's based on historical and uses recalc just like historical. If a team has a great David Ortiz and Eddie Murray on their team, I have no interest in seeing the AI plug Ortiz in at SS, just so his bat can be in the lineup.

[David Watts]

And once again, we now have Pee Wee Reese playing 2b with a 20 Red out of 80. This is with regular fatigue.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by David Watts

I'm not saying Rolen couldn't have played SS in real life. I am saying he didn't.

Rolen appears to be somewhat of a rarity in that he never played ANY other position - not even once - than 3B in either the majors or minors.

At any rate, I'm wondering if there is a setting that affects this. Do you have development on? Fielding ratings based upon Current Season? (Although with Rolen, doesn't matter what season, it should be based upon his ratings at ONLY 3B...)

The way I see it, any (for example) 3B should be able to slide over to SS and play the position as well as a very good beer-leaguer. But that doesn't mean that - in the absence of any real-life experience (stats) at the position - he should be rated high enough to where OOTP sees fit to put him there regularly. If that's what OOTP is doing, and it can't be explained by settings, then there's an issue.

[thehef]

I should add, though, for both the Rolen & Pee Wee examples, we'd need to know what the other options are on the team. If, for example, Rolen's team simply doesn't have anyone else rated for SS, then putting Rolen there might make sense. However, if that were the case, I'm guessing you would've mentioned that (or may not have even posted the issue )

[Beirnej1]

Have you tried using a larger active roster? My current random I have been playing through in this version I have been using a 28 man active roster. Maybe that could help giving the computer more options. My reasoning was to prevent non
Pitchers from pitching

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by thehef

Rolen appears to be somewhat of a rarity in that he never played ANY other position - not even once - than 3B in either the majors or minors.

At any rate, I'm wondering if there is a setting that affects this. Do you have development on? Fielding ratings based upon Current Season? (Although with Rolen, doesn't matter what season, it should be based upon his ratings at ONLY 3B...)

The way I see it, any (for example) 3B should be able to slide over to SS and play the position as well as a very good beer-leaguer. But that doesn't mean that - in the absence of any real-life experience (stats) at the position - he should be rated high enough to where OOTP sees fit to put him there regularly. If that's what OOTP is doing, and it can't be explained by settings, then there's an issue.

5 year recalc. Fielding based on 3 year period. It's random debut so development has to be on. I think the biggest problem is what you talked about earlier. In the case of Pee Wee Reese, the AI is playing a guy with the worst defensive rating the game offers at 2B, while Dee Gordon is rated light green 50, Ron Hunt same color 45, Art Howe same color 45, Kid Eberfeld is yellow 45. The game doesn't value defense at times.

Crazy thing is, I hit the run computer manager on all teams and the game sent Reese to the reserve roster and promoted Brendon Ryan.

[David Watts]

Going to mess around with a real historical league starting in 1919. 5 year recalc, no development, no coaching. Retire according to history is on. Will watch for guys playing out of position.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by David Watts

It's random debut so development has to be on.

I am completely unfamiliar with random debut except for what I occasionally read from you. But I would assume - random debut or not - that with development on, it's certainly possible for a 3B such as Rolen to develop SS ratings. Is that what happened, or is AI putting him at SS without SS ratings?

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by thehef

I am completely unfamiliar with random debut except for what I occasionally read from you. But I would assume - random debut or not - that with development on, it's certainly possible for a 3B such as Rolen to develop SS ratings. Is that what happened, or is AI putting him at SS without SS ratings?

As in the Greene example above, the game will start the guy at a position he has zero ratings to play. After the game is over, the player will usually have the bare minimum rating possible in red. In the Greene case he was rated a red 1 at 2B. He played a some more games and turned into a orange 5.

I know it's not the same thing, but if the game is going to just randomly decide Eddie Murray can play SS, why shouldn't it randomly decide Rod Carew is 56 homer a season guy that strikes out 189 times a season. Might as well just play fictional. I personally would rather the game add something to a players history saying the team had him workout at SS over the offseason and in the Spring and he developed to serviceable rating at the position. Instead we get Rolen playing SS with zero rating to start out and then the lowest possible rating. Plus, if Recalc works like it's supposed to,it's more than likely Rolen whatever SS rating he builds during the season once the offseason kicks in. As far as I know, a guy like Dale Murphy loses his ratings to play catcher once he starts playing CF primarily.

[David Watts]

Okay, ran a couple of experiments.

In the Pee Wee Reese league I mentioned above, I took over the KC game for a week or so. During that time, I played Miguel Cabrera at SS. I moved KC's actual SS to 1B. Over the 4 or 5 games I did this, Cabrera never received a rating to play SS. Both the actual shortstops that I moved to 1B received the bare minimum Red 20 following their first game played at 1B. One of them then moved up to a Red 25 after a few games at 1B. I then tried Cabrera at 2B for a few games. Again, he never received a rating. I tried him in the OF and he didn't receive a rating either. So it looks like the game does make some type of determination on whether it will allow a player to earn a rating.

Now, in the straight historical league I started in 1919. This league has development turned off. I took over the St. Louis Cardinals for one day. I moved their 2B to SS and their SS to 2B and played out a game. Neither player had ratings for the position they were moved to. Following the game, both players had accumulated the minimum Red 20 at the position they were moved to. So it occurs even with development turned off.

[Garlon]

In the game there is an option in the settings to assign defensive roles based in real life positions or let the game decide. If you base on real life positions this does not affect the player ratings but the computer will more often try to play a player at the real position but if it has to move a player then it will.

I usually do not base on real positions in my leagues because players can end up on any teams. For example, if a team ended up with Barry Larkin and Derek Jeter then one of those players need to move to 2B or 3B. It seems like that is more realistic than forcing one to the bench or trading one of them just because they both played SS historically.

In your random debut leagues though isn't it possible that there are just not enough SS or 3B in the league in a given season?

Another thing regarding the ratings is that the Range/Error/Arm/Turn DP ratings are based on their primary infield position. So if a player had the majority of their games at 2B but also played some 3B they will get an experience rating at 3B too but they will play their best at their primary position.

There are also different average values for those ratings at each position. The range requirement to be an average SS is the greatest of the infield positions. Players who do not have a minimum range or arm to get rated at a position will never get a rating there no matter how long they play there, but if a 2B has the arm to play 3B they will get rated there but they will probably be below the average 3B.

This makes SS very valuable because moving a 2B or 3B to SS means they will either not have the range or not have the arm to be average at SS (there are a couple exceptions, Brooks Robinson can move to SS and basically be slightly above average there because he was so good at 3B). However your average SS has the Arm to play 3B and the Range to play 2B if needed.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Garlon

In the game there is an option in the settings to assign defensive roles based in real life positions or let the game decide. If you base on real life positions this does not affect the player ratings but the computer will more often try to play a player at the real position but if it has to move a player then it will.

I usually do not base on real positions in my leagues because players can end up on any teams. For example, if a team ended up with Barry Larkin and Derek Jeter then one of those players need to move to 2B or 3B. It seems like that is more realistic than forcing one to the bench or trading one of them just because they both played SS historically.

In your random debut leagues though isn't it possible that there are just not enough SS or 3B in the league in a given season?

Another thing regarding the ratings is that the Range/Error/Arm/Turn DP ratings are based on their primary infield position. So if a player had the majority of their games at 2B but also played some 3B they will get an experience rating at 3B too but they will play their best at their primary position.

There are also different average values for those ratings at each position. The range requirement to be an average SS is the greatest of the infield positions. Players who do not have a minimum range or arm to get rated at a position will never get a rating there no matter how long they play there, but if a 2B has the arm to play 3B they will get rated there but they will probably be below the average 3B.

This makes SS very valuable because moving a 2B or 3B to SS means they will either not have the range or not have the arm to be average at SS (there are a couple exceptions, Brooks Robinson can move to SS and basically be slightly above average there because he was so good at 3B). However your average SS has the Arm to play 3B and the Range to play 2B if needed.

How much is the AI hurting the team when it chooses to play a guy with no ratings at all at a position? How bad are guys with red minimum ratings? For example, would the AI be smart if it plays Fred Lynn in LF rated red 24(20-80) scale, when there are at least 3 other options on the roster that have 40 - 60 ratings to play LF? Lynn is rated green 44 in CF. The AI has Leonys Martin starting in CF. Guessing this is an attempt by the AI to get both bats in lineup.

[Pelican]

Maybe this will offend the purists who don’t tamper with ratings, but why not simply open the Editor and assign a middle infielder without, for example, a SS rating, “experience” of 100 or even 200 at that position? I have done this, and it results in a low rating at SS, relative to 2B or 3B, as it should be, given that SS is the most demanding IF position. [To be fair, I then reduce the “experience” at the other positions, on the theory he can’t play everywhere at once…]. Whereas if you give a SS lacking “experience” at 2B a 100 value, the rating at 2B is comparatively better (but still less than at SS). What I don’t know is whether the “new” rating would improve with experience. In making these modifications, I have tried to keep myself honest, and not put corner IF at middle IF positions (unless they played there at some point in their career). Stretching the boundaries of this, I have played Jimmie Hall (one of my favorite players as a kid, and star of my very first Strat-O-Matic team) at SS in my 1971 sim. He’s a wretched fielder, since he hadn’t played SS for years. But he hits well enough to stay in the lineup (now for the Padres).