B’bye, Buster

[Ty Cobb]

A legend walks away, and will be missed by many.


https://www.mlb.com/news/buster-posey-retirement

[Westheim]

Nooo, I always liked Buster Posey ...!

Not sure I'd put him in the Hall of Fame, though.

[Déjà Bru]

Some guys drag it out — for the money or because they don't know what else to do with themselves — and some, like Posey, leave while they are still on top. While you wish they could go on, perhaps it's better than seeing him batting .204 before hanging up his cleats.

.204: It's not a random number that I chose; it's Gary Sanchez's batting average from 2021, a guy in his "prime."Which leads to this thought:

Even if it is only 12 years, Posey's career numbers are good enough for the Hall of Fame as a catcher. As Sanchez's persistence demonstrates, good hitting catchers who play decently behind the plate are rare in this game. ROY, MVP, GG, and 7 AS plus a career .302 batting average make Posey a HOFer.

[pilight]

None of the HOF predictors see him as a strong candidate

[cephasjames]

As good a career as he's had, he is well below even the average HoF standards. He won't get in.

[pilight]

Originally Posted by cephasjames

As good a career as he's had, he is well below even the average HoF standards. He won't get in.

Half the players in the HOF are below the average standards

[Déjà Bru]

Don't forget, we are talking about a catcher. I ran across this factoid just now:

There are approximately 18 Hall of Fame catchers, as of 2019. There are 329 elected members of the National Baseball Hall of Fame as of 2019, so catchers make up a little over 5% of those inductees.

Catcher Ted Simmons was selected in 2020 along with three other men, so the percentage nudged up toward 6%.

But when I looked at Simmons' bio just now, I was given pause:

In a 21-year major league career, Simmons played in 2,456 games, accumulating 2,472 hits in 8,680 at bats for a .285 career batting average along with 248 home runs, 1,389 runs batted in and a .348 on-base percentage. He ended his career with a .986 fielding percentage. An eight-time All-Star, he batted above .300 seven times, reached 20 home runs six times, and eight times exceeded 90 runs batted in. He switch-hit home runs in a game three times and established a since-broken National League career record for home runs by a switch-hitter (182). Simmons held major league records for catchers with 2,472 career hits and 483 doubles, since broken by Iván Rodríguez. He ranks second all-time among catchers with 1,389 runs batted in and 10th with 248 home runs. He caught 122 shutouts in his career, ranking him eighth all-time among major league catchers. In his book, The Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract, baseball historian Bill James ranked Simmons 10th all-time among major league catchers.

This dwarfs Posey's accomplishments, yet Simmons got less than 5% of the vote on his first ballot in 1994, dropping him from future BWAA ballots. He had to be elected by the Veterans' Committee on his second try.

So maybe my enthusiasm for Posey and the HoF was a bit premature.

[swoboda]

Huge loss for the Gigantes. Best catcher I have ever seen for framing and calling a game.
Lifetime .300 hitter, and a higher career OPS than Yady (who is a no doubt about it HoFer).
My guess is he gets into the Hall third year of eligibility.

[cephasjames]

Originally Posted by pilight

Half the players in the HOF are below the average standards

Most in recent years have had some aspect of their game above the average standards. Posey has nothing above the average.

But we'll see.

[pilight]

Posey makes for an interesting comparison to the endless Joe Mauer debate

[monkeyman576]

Even though he had a relatively short 12 year career, there is an argument for Buster Posey in the hall of fame. There are a lack of other catchers in his generation that have had longer more productive careers. Here is a list of catchers of his era that are not in the hall of fame yet.

Player(WAR)
Joe Mauer(55)
Buster Posey(44)
Jorge Posada(42)
Yadier Molina(42)
Jason Kendall(41)
Russell Martin(38)
Victor Martinez(32)

Arguments can be made that Mauer, Posada, Molina, and Kendall deserve to get in before he does, but arguments can be made the other way as well, and Posey has 3 rings to his resume. So if I were a hall of fame voter, I would put him in, along with Mauer, Posada, and Molina.

[joefromchicago]

Posey retires with only 12 seasons under his belt, having missed all of 2020. That's just not very long. "But," I hear you saying, "that's not fair - catchers have shorter careers than other players." Which is true, but Posey also didn't have a particularly long career in comparison to other HOF-caliber catchers either. He ranks 96th among all catchers for games played behind the plate. That puts him in the company of guys like Todd Hundley and Darrin Fletcher. Only one HOF catcher has fewer games - Roger Bresnahan - and his HOF credentials are pretty weak.

BBRef says that the player most similar to Posey is Terry Steinbach, which made me take a look at Steinbach and hey, he wasn't that bad of a catcher. Who knew? BBRef also says that Posey, on a year-by-year basis, most resembled Victor Martinez, and taking another look at Martinez's career makes me think that he'd be a better candidate for the HOF than Posey. There will definitely be voters who will cast ballots for Posey, but I just don't think Posey stacks up well against guys like Molina and Mauer, who will definitely get into the HOF. Posey will just have to be content with getting his uniform number retired.

[pilight]

Posey caught almost 200 more games than Mauer and was much better at it. Putting Mauer ahead is saying hanging around for years as a mediocre 1B/DH is more important than winning championships.

[joefromchicago]

Originally Posted by pilight

Posey caught almost 200 more games than Mauer and was much better at it.

Possibly, but Mauer's three gold gloves would suggest otherwise.

Originally Posted by pilight

Putting Mauer ahead is saying hanging around for years as a mediocre 1B/DH is more important than winning championships.

Well, yeah, it is more important. Championships aren't everything (see Banks, Ernie), and it's not like Buster Posey won those three WS titles for the Giants all by himself. If winning WS rings determined who got into the HOF, then David Cone would be there. It's far more important for the team that a valuable player stays in the lineup - in whatever capacity - to help the team. Mauer could still contribute with his bat even when his health no longer allowed him to catch, and since he was in a league that had the DH, I don't see how his transition to DH or first base is some kind of knock against him.

He'll be remembered primarily as a catcher because that's where he had his biggest success. But he'll get into the HOF based on his entire career. In that respect, he'll be like a bunch of other HOF players who transitioned from one position to another lower down on the defensive spectrum in order to keep their bats in the lineup (see, e.g., Banks, Ernie). If Posey had stuck around for a couple more years as a DH or first baseman, maybe he'd have a better case for induction.

[monkeyman576]

There's no reason why Mauer, Posey, and Molina can't ALL get in, in my opinion, especially considering the lack of pitchers with obvious hall credentials(only Verlander, Kershaw, Grienke, Scherzer, Hamels, and Sale, maybe Felix Hernandez) in my opinion.

[pilight]

I saw Posey in high school. He played shortstop and pitched at that time. He was really good, but I didn't think he was destined to be a major leaguer.

[pilight]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

Well, yeah, it is more important. Championships aren't everything (see Banks, Ernie), and it's not like Buster Posey won those three WS titles for the Giants all by himself. If winning WS rings determined who got into the HOF, then David Cone would be there. It's far more important for the team that a valuable player stays in the lineup - in whatever capacity - to help the team.

And we've reached the point of Analytico ad Absurdum. Ask Ernie Banks or any player if they would trade a year of their career or a couple hundred hits for a championship and every one would say yes. You say it's valuable to stay in the lineup to help the team. Help the team do what? Try to win a championship of course. I agree that championships aren't everything, but they're also not the nothing the statheads make them out to be.

[joefromchicago]

Originally Posted by pilight

And we've reached the point of Analytico ad Absurdum.

Heh, good one. Mind if I use that?

Originally Posted by pilight

Ask Ernie Banks or any player if they would trade a year of their career or a couple hundred hits for a championship and every one would say yes.

This just in from the pilight News Bureau:

COOPERSTOWN -- Today, the Baseball Hall of Fame inducted Frankie Crosetti, the largely unknown and unheralded shortstop for the New York Yankees from 1932 to 1948. Although he compiled a modest .245 career batting average along with 1541 hits, he was on eight World Series championship teams. In the eyes of the voters, those eight rings each equaled a "year of his career and a couple hundred hits," thus making Crosetti a 3000-hit man over the course of his 25-year career. Crosetti's 3141 adjusted hits put him in 21st place on the all-time hit list, tied with Tony Gwynn and just behind Paul Molitor. Worthy company indeed for a player who started his career picking up Babe Ruth's jock straps.

I appreciate the sentimentality of your argument, but it plays no role whatsoever in determining whether a player should be enshrined among the game's elite. I'd say that's an "Analytico ad Absurdum," but I'm not seeing much "analytico" there.

Originally Posted by pilight

You say it's valuable to stay in the lineup to help the team. Help the team do what? Try to win a championship of course. I agree that championships aren't everything, but they're also not the nothing the statheads make them out to be.

Yes, Joe Mauer playing 15 seasons was more valuable than Buster Posey calling it quits after 12. That's because Mauer accumulated more at-bats and hits and everything else that we can look at to determine if he was a great player for an extended period of time. And Mauer helped his team by staying in the game. Did he help the Twins win the championship? No, but then that's how baseball works. We don't send half the teams home at the All-Star break because they don't have a chance of winning the World Series. Everybody plays out the string, the good and the bad. And players are evaluated on how well they did, not on how well their teammates did. If the HOF was reserved only for players who won championships, it would be called the Hall of Yankees.

[Ty Cobb]

Gotta agree with the folks who say no HOF for Buster. He was a tremendous asset to the Giants during his tenure, though. I think we can all agree that HOF or no, he was a worthy adversary and fine player. He's supposed to be a pretty decent human being as well from what I've read. I hope he enjoys the heck out of life.

[dsvitak]

If Posey gets in, then Bill Madlock, Don Mattingly, Dave Parker, and Keith Hernandez are locks..along with another 50 I could name.

Look at Jim Edmonds, and compare him to Posey.

Posey had a career .831 OPS, with 1500 hits, while Edmonds had a career .903 OPS (YES, CAREER OPS), with 1949 hits, eight Gold Gloves, and 330 more total bases, and, to top it all off, Edmonds had an additional 450 walks.

Edmonds gets on base 900 more times than Posey, and no one in their right mind would suggest that Edmonds wasn't a HUGELY better defensive player, and Edmonds isn't seriously considered a HoF'er.