Pitching Prospect Advice?

c-man · 12-19-2001, 09:54 AM

This is probably a very basic question, but...

In my solo fictional league, I have a great pitching prospect in AAA who definitely appears to be ready for the majors. Believe me, I need pitching help! However, his starter duration rating is "E". He only lasts a few innings before the computer manager pulls him. Maybe it's not uncommon, but I havent noticed an E starter rating prior to this guy.

Is Duration something that will increase in the minors? or is this something that i would have to address in spring training? (i normally skip it)

It takes all my strength not to open up the player editor!

Thanks.

Brian · 12-19-2001, 10:25 AM

Endurance is a player development item that is just by chance but you can allocate 5 points from somewhere in ST and it will increase. I usually take away from valecity and allocate it to endurance. The pitcher may possibly lose 1 point from avoiding runs but should gain it back is young enough.

Brian

sporr · 12-19-2001, 10:26 AM

Duration is a rating that increases over the course of a pitcher's career. In my league, I have quite a few pitchers with E duration - most of them converted relievers or spot starter guys. You can adjust the hook rating to try to have the computer leave him in longer, but it will only be effective if you have enough days in between his starts to rest him.

Killebrew · 12-19-2001, 10:52 AM

[quote]Originally posted by c-man:
Is Duration something that will increase in the minors? or is this something that i would have to address in spring training? (i normally skip it) <hr></blockquote>

Pitcher endurance can increase but it is rare in my experience, possibly like fielding grade advancements. Most pitchers I see keep the same endurance their entire career, unless you use spring training as has been pointed out. As was also pointed out, adjusting the hook rating can help a lot, as the endurance ratings are just there to tell the AI what inning to remove a pitcher. In your example, I don't think keeping him in AAA will help at all, he has just as much chance to increase endurance while in the bigs.

c-man · 12-19-2001, 11:28 AM

Thanks for the info, i'll try adjusting the hook. Otherwise, i guess there's always next season and spring training.

i have actually seen a lot of E starter duration ratings for pitchers designated as Relief Pitchers. But i'm just surprised since he is rated primarily as a SP. I like it though, that there's a great prospect with a flaw that will possibly keep him out of my lineup. makes things interesting--painfully interesting, but interesting nonetheless.

Peterk · 12-19-2001, 06:14 PM

> as the endurance ratings are just there to tell > the AI what inning

Doesn't performance suffer once he's tired and goes red? I had the impression there was aftigue effect.

I also had the first 2 pitchers I ever allowed to go into the red get injured on the very first batter they faced and I jumped to the conclusion that there was increased risk of slight injury too - I'm not sure about that one any more.

Killebrew · 12-19-2001, 08:35 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Peterk:
Doesn't performance suffer once he's tired and goes red? I had the impression there was aftigue effect. <hr></blockquote>

No, but I think that is one of the most wished for additions of v4 though (fatigue factor)

.

As for increased chance of injuries by over playing a player, that also does not happen, though a player that plays every inning will have more injury "chances" and therefore more injuries over time. Example: A player that plays in 100 games has a 50% higher chance of injury than the player that plays in 50 games.

Kevin · 12-20-2001, 02:06 AM

Definately use the E guy in the bigs. A lot of those types in 'real' baseball too. That's why you need to pay attention to your middle relievers as well.

Scott Vibert · 12-20-2001, 03:35 AM

It has been my experience that Pitchers who are tired and go into the red can have a decreased performance as a result of being tired. At least anecdotally I have noticed this, I haven't seen too many injuries with tired pitchers however.

There isn't really a fatigue factor from day to day (especially for position players) but I have definitely noticed some decreased performance (not too much but some) for pitchers throwing in the red.

sporr · 12-20-2001, 04:17 AM

This is true. I have used a pitcher while he was red on several occasions. Twice, with my bullpen exhausted, I forced my long reliever to pitch well into the red for several innings. There came a point in time where he couldn't get anybody out. Of course, throwing 150 pitches can do that to you.

marioh · 12-20-2001, 04:36 AM

[quote]Twice, with my bullpen exhausted, I forced my long reliever to pitch well into the red for several innings. <hr></blockquote>

I've seen the AI leave a RED pitcher on the mound for more than 3 innings after he turned red. The guy totally shut down my hitters.
Of course, whenever I usually do it, my pitcher usually gets rocked.

Scott Vibert · 12-20-2001, 06:45 AM

The AI Pitcher in the red, sometimes will shut you down... remember in baseball you are still a good hitter even if you fail 70% of the time... so its very likely the AI pitcher will shut you down from time to time in the red, I have had good fortune sometimes and other times with a exhausted bullpen (3 straight extra inning games with one going 17 another 13 and another 11 will do that to ya

) I ended up leaving my starter in there to get rocked for 10 runs and 17 hits over 7 innings (the last two where he was tired (in the red)) he gave up 5 of those runs in the 7th inning... but I got him through it... then turned the game over to my scrub (just brought up from AAA even though he was tired too) for the last 2 innings.

I typically see the AI leave pitchers in there when they are "in the red" most often during high scoring extra inning games, when they have run out of relievers... the game doesn't seem to want to use that starter in the extra inning game, regardless of the situation.

Peterk · 12-20-2001, 07:07 AM

A great fatigue effect for pitchers in the red
and overplaying position players in general in OOTP4 would be just to increase the probability of injury.

I lost my first two pitchers I put in the red for a few days each (I thought that it was an extremely realistic effect at the time) and I can tell you, I didn't pitch in the red again for a long time after that.

sporr · 12-20-2001, 10:00 AM

My other favorite thing to do is when I have a reliever blow a big lead, I make him stay in the game to take his lumps.

MizzouRah · 12-20-2001, 10:28 AM

sporr,

I do the same thing, when my closer blows a save, he stays in there until the inning is over!

Todd

Killebrew · 12-20-2001, 12:12 PM

I wish it were true (about the reduced effectiveness of overplaying a pitcher) but I still don't believe it is so. The times I have seen a good but tired pitcher get hit hard are so rare that I think the it's simply the odds of a good pitcher being hit hard occasionally.

markeschen · 12-20-2001, 02:03 PM

I've learned the hard way not to draft picthers with D or E endurance ratings. I do occationally see ratings drop with my players in the minors,. Increases are more rare

I got stuck with an E rated pitcher in my personal fictional league too. He was a D when I drafted him and dropped a rating while he was young. He has a good arm but he is never going to win a lot of games. If he struggles at all, he gets tired before he throws 5 innings.

I'd trade the guy or move him to your pen where you can figure on getting 60 pitches (maybe 3-4 innings?) out of him every 5 days.

Good luck

sporr · 12-20-2001, 02:58 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Killebrew:
I wish it were true (about the reduced effectiveness of overplaying a pitcher) but I still don't believe it is so. The times I have seen a good but tired pitcher get hit hard are so rare that I think the it's simply the odds of a good pitcher being hit hard occasionally.<hr></blockquote>

I always attributed this to the fact that a tired good pitcher is still better than a healthy crappy pitcher.

c-man · 12-20-2001, 04:01 PM

Well, i adjusted my hook back to normal from quick, inserted the E pitcher in question, Dennis Miranda, into the rotation, and watched the game.

7IP, 4Hits, 7K's, no walks, no runs. Pulled in the eighth for a pinch hitter. He was a hard luck no decision, no runs till the 13th when my Tigers finally got one in, only to have the Cards score 4 in the bottom of the 13th. That bullpen is going to hear it from me!

He only threw 91 pitches, so it's tough to say what he will do for me down the road--but for now, he earned his keep! Thanks--

12-19-2001, 09:54 AM	#1
c-man Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 130	Pitching Prospect Advice? This is probably a very basic question, but... In my solo fictional league, I have a great pitching prospect in AAA who definitely appears to be ready for the majors. Believe me, I need pitching help! However, his starter duration rating is "E". He only lasts a few innings before the computer manager pulls him. Maybe it's not uncommon, but I havent noticed an E starter rating prior to this guy. Is Duration something that will increase in the minors? or is this something that i would have to address in spring training? (i normally skip it) It takes all my strength not to open up the player editor! Thanks.

12-19-2001, 10:25 AM	#2
Brian Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Indiana Posts: 103	Endurance is a player development item that is just by chance but you can allocate 5 points from somewhere in ST and it will increase. I usually take away from valecity and allocate it to endurance. The pitcher may possibly lose 1 point from avoiding runs but should gain it back is young enough. Brian __________________ MLML Dodgers LOHO Dodgers

12-19-2001, 10:52 AM	#4
Killebrew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 3,326	[quote]Originally posted by c-man: <strong>Is Duration something that will increase in the minors? or is this something that i would have to address in spring training? (i normally skip it) </strong><hr></blockquote> Pitcher endurance can increase but it is rare in my experience, possibly like fielding grade advancements. Most pitchers I see keep the same endurance their entire career, unless you use spring training as has been pointed out. As was also pointed out, adjusting the hook rating can help a lot, as the endurance ratings are just there to tell the AI what inning to remove a pitcher. In your example, I don't think keeping him in AAA will help at all, he has just as much chance to increase endurance while in the bigs. __________________ FOBL Capital City Metropolitans CDL Minnesota Twins

12-19-2001, 08:35 PM	#7
Killebrew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 3,326	[quote]Originally posted by Peterk: <strong>Doesn't performance suffer once he's tired and goes red? I had the impression there was aftigue effect. </strong><hr></blockquote> No, but I think that is one of the most wished for additions of v4 though (fatigue factor) . As for increased chance of injuries by over playing a player, that also does not happen, though a player that plays every inning will have more injury "chances" and therefore more injuries over time. Example: A player that plays in 100 games has a 50% higher chance of injury than the player that plays in 50 games. __________________ FOBL Capital City Metropolitans CDL Minnesota Twins

12-20-2001, 02:06 AM	#8
Kevin All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 503	Definately use the E guy in the bigs. A lot of those types in 'real' baseball too. That's why you need to pay attention to your middle relievers as well. __________________ It seems more like today than it did all day yesterday.

12-19-2001, 10:26 AM	#3
sporr Global Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Muscatine, IA Posts: 8,277	Duration is a rating that increases over the course of a pitcher's career. In my league, I have quite a few pitchers with E duration - most of them converted relievers or spot starter guys. You can adjust the hook rating to try to have the computer leave him in longer, but it will only be effective if you have enough days in between his starts to rest him.

12-19-2001, 11:28 AM	#5
c-man Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 130	Thanks for the info, i'll try adjusting the hook. Otherwise, i guess there's always next season and spring training. i have actually seen a lot of E starter duration ratings for pitchers designated as Relief Pitchers. But i'm just surprised since he is rated primarily as a SP. I like it though, that there's a great prospect with a flaw that will possibly keep him out of my lineup. makes things interesting--painfully interesting, but interesting nonetheless.

12-19-2001, 06:14 PM	#6
Peterk Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Montreal Posts: 220	> as the endurance ratings are just there to tell > the AI what inning Doesn't performance suffer once he's tired and goes red? I had the impression there was aftigue effect. I also had the first 2 pitchers I ever allowed to go into the red get injured on the very first batter they faced and I jumped to the conclusion that there was increased risk of slight injury too - I'm not sure about that one any more.

12-20-2001, 03:35 AM	#9
Scott Vibert Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: My Computer Posts: 8,201	It has been my experience that Pitchers who are tired and go into the red can have a decreased performance as a result of being tired. At least anecdotally I have noticed this, I haven't seen too many injuries with tired pitchers however. There isn't really a fatigue factor from day to day (especially for position players) but I have definitely noticed some decreased performance (not too much but some) for pitchers throwing in the red.

12-20-2001, 04:17 AM	#10
sporr Global Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Muscatine, IA Posts: 8,277	This is true. I have used a pitcher while he was red on several occasions. Twice, with my bullpen exhausted, I forced my long reliever to pitch well into the red for several innings. There came a point in time where he couldn't get anybody out. Of course, throwing 150 pitches can do that to you.

12-20-2001, 04:36 AM	#11
marioh All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: NYC Posts: 1,162	[quote]Twice, with my bullpen exhausted, I forced my long reliever to pitch well into the red for several innings. <hr></blockquote> I've seen the AI leave a RED pitcher on the mound for more than 3 innings after he turned red. The guy totally shut down my hitters. Of course, whenever I usually do it, my pitcher usually gets rocked. __________________ RZA - "I'm me and the me that's me is me and is going to continue to be me"

12-20-2001, 06:45 AM	#12
Scott Vibert Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: My Computer Posts: 8,201	The AI Pitcher in the red, sometimes will shut you down... remember in baseball you are still a good hitter even if you fail 70% of the time... so its very likely the AI pitcher will shut you down from time to time in the red, I have had good fortune sometimes and other times with a exhausted bullpen (3 straight extra inning games with one going 17 another 13 and another 11 will do that to ya ) I ended up leaving my starter in there to get rocked for 10 runs and 17 hits over 7 innings (the last two where he was tired (in the red)) he gave up 5 of those runs in the 7th inning... but I got him through it... then turned the game over to my scrub (just brought up from AAA even though he was tired too) for the last 2 innings. I typically see the AI leave pitchers in there when they are "in the red" most often during high scoring extra inning games, when they have run out of relievers... the game doesn't seem to want to use that starter in the extra inning game, regardless of the situation.

12-20-2001, 07:07 AM	#13
Peterk Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Montreal Posts: 220	A great fatigue effect for pitchers in the red and overplaying position players in general in OOTP4 would be just to increase the probability of injury. I lost my first two pitchers I put in the red for a few days each (I thought that it was an extremely realistic effect at the time) and I can tell you, I didn't pitch in the red again for a long time after that.

12-20-2001, 10:00 AM	#14
sporr Global Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Muscatine, IA Posts: 8,277	My other favorite thing to do is when I have a reliever blow a big lead, I make him stay in the game to take his lumps.

12-20-2001, 10:28 AM	#15
MizzouRah Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Troy, Mo Posts: 6,252	sporr, I do the same thing, when my closer blows a save, he stays in there until the inning is over! Todd

12-20-2001, 12:12 PM	#16
Killebrew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 3,326	I wish it were true (about the reduced effectiveness of overplaying a pitcher) but I still don't believe it is so. The times I have seen a good but tired pitcher get hit hard are so rare that I think the it's simply the odds of a good pitcher being hit hard occasionally. __________________ FOBL Capital City Metropolitans CDL Minnesota Twins

12-20-2001, 02:03 PM	#17
markeschen Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: San Bruno, CA Posts: 53	I've learned the hard way not to draft picthers with D or E endurance ratings. I do occationally see ratings drop with my players in the minors,. Increases are more rare I got stuck with an E rated pitcher in my personal fictional league too. He was a D when I drafted him and dropped a rating while he was young. He has a good arm but he is never going to win a lot of games. If he struggles at all, he gets tired before he throws 5 innings. I'd trade the guy or move him to your pen where you can figure on getting 60 pitches (maybe 3-4 innings?) out of him every 5 days. Good luck __________________ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Here's to the Giants . . . . . serving heaps of frustration since 1954 . . . .

12-20-2001, 02:58 PM	#18
sporr Global Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Muscatine, IA Posts: 8,277	[quote]Originally posted by Killebrew: <strong>I wish it were true (about the reduced effectiveness of overplaying a pitcher) but I still don't believe it is so. The times I have seen a good but tired pitcher get hit hard are so rare that I think the it's simply the odds of a good pitcher being hit hard occasionally.</strong><hr></blockquote> I always attributed this to the fact that a tired good pitcher is still better than a healthy crappy pitcher.

12-20-2001, 04:01 PM	#19
c-man Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 130	Well, i adjusted my hook back to normal from quick, inserted the E pitcher in question, Dennis Miranda, into the rotation, and watched the game. 7IP, 4Hits, 7K's, no walks, no runs. Pulled in the eighth for a pinch hitter. He was a hard luck no decision, no runs till the 13th when my Tigers finally got one in, only to have the Cards score 4 in the bottom of the 13th. That bullpen is going to hear it from me! He only threw 91 pitches, so it's tough to say what he will do for me down the road--but for now, he earned his keep! Thanks--