SP, RP,... Can we just have P?

[koohead]

The thread on ratings and why the 20-80 scale is used reminded me of one of my irks with OOTP and how it handles RP ratings. If you follow the 20-80 scale, the top bullpen guys should never be as valuable as the top batters and #1 rotation guys...at least from a pure ratings perspective.
With the new way that OOTP handles fatigue (having separate fatigue statuses depending on if they are a SP or a RP), seems the need to designate a pitcher as SP vs RP vs CL is not really relevant any longer. If everyone were just P's, could the ratings handle things better and we wouldn't have so many RPs in the high 60's and 70's?
has anyone come up with a creative way to handle this? And yes, I know...turn ratings off. :P

[Westheim]

Separating the position into SP and RP/CL is definitely necessary for whenever you are searching for a player, say, among free agents. I want a *starter*, not a reliever ...!

...or to neatly sort your roster on a stats page, and so on...

[CBeisbol]

Yes
It's strange how OOTP handles that

Also let us set an expectation for how many pitches a pitcher is going to throw when they are brought into a game.

If I bring in a 70 stamina pitcher in the 2nd inning because of an injury, they should pitch like a starter not a reliever (if I want them to). A real manager would give their player an expectation before entering the game.

We shouldn't be constrained to use players how other people have used them

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by Westheim

Separating the position into SP and RP/CL is definitely necessary for whenever you are searching for a player, say, among free agents. I want a *starter*, not a reliever ...!

...or to neatly sort your roster on a stats page, and so on...

It's not definitely necessary.
Set your filters for whatever you consider a "starter".

These unimaginative players need to quit blocking up the game for more innovative players

[koohead]

Originally Posted by Westheim

Separating the position into SP and RP/CL is definitely necessary for whenever you are searching for a player, say, among free agents. I want a *starter*, not a reliever ...!

...or to neatly sort your roster on a stats page, and so on...

Agree it makes it more convenient for those purposes, except there are plenty of players listed as SPs that only have 2 legit pitches, marginal 3rd pitch, and very low stamina. so the likelihood of me using them as SPs (or anything more than an emergency spot start) is low...so I find myself having to further filter people that the AI lists as SP by my own personal criteria. There are also instances of the AI listing young SPs called up as RPs...who have 4-5 legit pitches and plenty of stamina to be a mid to bottom rotation arm. I miss out on those when searching rosters if I filter only on SPs.

[CBeisbol]

Starting pitcher: relief pitcher:: starting 3B: defensive replacement at 3B

They are not different positions, but different uses

[SirMichaelJordan]

Originally Posted by Westheim

Separating the position into SP and RP/CL is definitely necessary for whenever you are searching for a player, say, among free agents. I want a *starter*, not a reliever ...!

...or to neatly sort your roster on a stats page, and so on...

Tbh searching for a SP could find you a poor rated SP who would be rated better if he was listed as a RP instead. Or you might get a high rated RP (since it's plenty) that could be better than the worse SP in FA if he was listed AT SP instead.

In reality there are skills that separates a SP from a RP and a RP from a CL

[OutS|der]

We need more ways to filter players. IE number of pitches. Really we should be able to filter by every stat or attribute

For the OP just filter pitchers by stamina if you're looking for a starter, ignore what position the AI sets them to and then use the view that shows number of pitches.

I'd rather get ride of the designations due to how the game uses them depending on their position. Relivers don't last as long as a starter no matter the stamina, starters aren't nearly as effective as they should be coming out of the pen.

[Giants44]

I think in the real life modern game the overwhelming path to being a reliever is being a failed starter somewhere along the way. Eventually if players find a successful role in the bullpen they become recognized and viewed as that.

Also some guys seem to have either an innate ability both physically and mentally to handle a bullpen role where you might need to pitch 4 days in a row and then not again for a week. you need to be able to succeed despite not having consistent days or consistent warm up opportunities.

as a high school coach we try guys in multiple roles at the lower levels and by the time they reach varsity we have usually identified where they are most successful within the needs of the team.

with a game you need to simplify and model a way to reflect that and I think the current game does a pretty good (but not perfect) job of doing that. I wouldn't mind another simple rating for starter vs reliever in order to reflect those innate skills, but I also recognize the ratings system is complex and you don't simply add a rating like that without tons of testing to make sure it works the way you want it to.

also important to remember OOTP is a game that models across a lot of eras and the definition of what it means to be a starter vs a reliever has changed a lot over the years. I don't play non-MLB based games, but I know a lot of people do and I can only assume those leagues have some differences as well.

the designation is also important for compensation as top end SP earn more the closers who earn more then setup guys

bottom line, I think it is a conversation worth having, but is more complex then just one way or the other.

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by koohead

The thread on ratings and why the 20-80 scale is used reminded me of one of my irks with OOTP and how it handles RP ratings. If you follow the 20-80 scale, the top bullpen guys should never be as valuable as the top batters and #1 rotation guys...at least from a pure ratings perspective.
With the new way that OOTP handles fatigue (having separate fatigue statuses depending on if they are a SP or a RP), seems the need to designate a pitcher as SP vs RP vs CL is not really relevant any longer. If everyone were just P's, could the ratings handle things better and we wouldn't have so many RPs in the high 60's and 70's?
has anyone come up with a creative way to handle this? And yes, I know...turn ratings off. :P

A couple of problems here.

1. Unless you uncheck the default, the 20-80 rating is based on position not all players. So there is no comparison between batters and pitchers in the ratings. So a 80 CL doesn't mean an equivalent value to a batter it just means he is one of the best closers in your league. A 80 C maybe a different value than a 80 1B.

2. The stuff rating is handled different for RPs and SPs. If a pitcher starts or if you flip him to SP stuff is based on the top 3 pitches. As a RP it is based on the top 2 pitches. Since a starter will hopefully need to pitch through the lineup more than once he needs at least 3 good pitches. So borderline starter is often more about the 3 pitch quality rather than stamina.

3. I am not aware fatigue is handled differently than past versions. Could be wrong on that one.

4. CL vs. RP affects current and potential because it compares to a different pool. It doesn't affect stats as far as I know. Stuff does change if flip someone from RP to SP and sometimes if you go SP to RP.

5. I am not sure there are so many pitchers in the high 60's and 70's. I haven't seen it in my games. Again since this is comparison, there should be only a certain percentile in that range. Now if you have a rich team you might have only guys in the upper percentiles.

7. Ratings and stats mean more now than current and potential. If you are basing only on your scout's opinion of the 20-80 score on current and potential you will find trouble. That holds for the traditional game or perfect team. Often guys rated lower by your scouts perform better. I think the game over emphasizes stuff in the pitcher current. A guy with lower stuff but fewer HRs and better control will sometimes outperform a guy like Josh Hader or Chapman but his current might be lower.

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by OutS|der

We need more ways to filter players. IE number of pitches. Really we should be able to filter by every stat or attribute

For the OP just filter pitchers by stamina if you're looking for a starter, ignore what position the AI sets them to and then use the view that shows number of pitches.

I'd rather get ride of the designations due to how the game uses them depending on their position. Relivers don't last as long as a starter no matter the stamina, starters aren't nearly as effective as they should be coming out of the pen.

You can filter on anything. It just takes some work. You can customize a filter to do almost anything. I have a few saved like 1B/3B, 2B/SS, CF >50 fielding rating, Leadoff man, 3 hole hitter, CL (based on stuff), LHP, etc. There is no problem on making filters but some workshop with filters or more stock filters in the game might be useful. I even have a pro years filters to sign minor league filler and look for some guys with decent potential by my scout another team thought was trash.

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by akilleusjm

The truth, there should be a better control regarding the position of the pitchers (RP or SP), since it is not only in the FA but also in minor leagues these are used in different roles than they should be, (not here stamina is taken into account and neither are the types of releases nor the amount it can handle.

It must be taken into account that the roles should be at all levels from MLV to R.

I don't think they are misused. The game assigns a label when the team sets the pitching staff. The minors have lower standards on what is a starter because it is lower level so guys who can start rookie aren't always guys who will be starters in the majors. You find SP in FA that are labeled SP because the team they were on had them as a long relief/ Emergency starter because they were the worst starter.

It goes back to filters. Don't just use the SP filter in FA. Set a filter on stamina. While I argued differently I see the point of a previous post you can't filter any 3 pitches above say 50. Which would be helpful with a starter. I am not sure you can filter on potential role either. Even then the scouts might say a guy is bullpen emergency starter when the guy might be ok as a SP right now.

[quillenl]

Originally Posted by OutS|der

We need more ways to filter players. IE number of pitches.

You can, see screenshot below unless I misunderstood you.

[quillenl]

Originally Posted by Biggio509

A couple of problems here.
2. The stuff rating is handled different for RPs and SPs. If a pitcher starts or if you flip him to SP stuff is based on the top 3 pitches. As a RP it is based on the top 2 pitches. Since a starter will hopefully need to pitch through the lineup more than once he needs at least 3 good pitches. So borderline starter is often more about the 3 pitch quality rather than stamina.

Not sure about that. If you take a RP with two pitches and add a third pitch of any rating his Stuff will increase. If you take an RP with an existing 3rd pitch and lower the value of that lowest rated pitch (or delete it altogether) Stuff will decrease. Can see this clearly messing with the editor and seeing the value change both in the editor and on the profile tab.

For example, just edited a 2 pitch closer with a 176 stuff in the editor (8 on 1-10 scale) to add a 3rd pitch with a value of 1 current / potential. Hist stuff rating increases to 180.

[SirMichaelJordan]

Originally Posted by Biggio509

A couple of problems here.

1. Unless you uncheck the default, the 20-80 rating is based on position not all players. So there is no comparison between batters and pitchers in the ratings. So a 80 CL doesn't mean an equivalent value to a batter it just means he is one of the best closers in your league. A 80 C maybe a different value than a 80 1B.

2. The stuff rating is handled different for RPs and SPs. If a pitcher starts or if you flip him to SP stuff is based on the top 3 pitches. As a RP it is based on the top 2 pitches. Since a starter will hopefully need to pitch through the lineup more than once he needs at least 3 good pitches. So borderline starter is often more about the 3 pitch quality rather than stamina.

3. I am not aware fatigue is handled differently than past versions. Could be wrong on that one.

4. CL vs. RP affects current and potential because it compares to a different pool. It doesn't affect stats as far as I know. Stuff does change if flip someone from RP to SP and sometimes if you go SP to RP.

5. I am not sure there are so many pitchers in the high 60's and 70's. I haven't seen it in my games. Again since this is comparison, there should be only a certain percentile in that range. Now if you have a rich team you might have only guys in the upper percentiles.

7. Ratings and stats mean more now than current and potential. If you are basing only on your scout's opinion of the 20-80 score on current and potential you will find trouble. That holds for the traditional game or perfect team. Often guys rated lower by your scouts perform better. I think the game over emphasizes stuff in the pitcher current. A guy with lower stuff but fewer HRs and better control will sometimes outperform a guy like Josh Hader or Chapman but his current might be lower.

Just a FYI, whether that option is checked or not batters aren't compared to pitchers. That option only applies to position players.

[Matt Arnold]

I'm sure we'll keep tweaking how SP vs RP are rated every year until we get the right mix.

I'll start with the usual that I have to remind people on - relievers are rated on more than just 2 pitches, but the top 2 are much more heavily weighted than SP. And all pitchers in-game values for stamina and stuff depend on their usage - just because you have a guy set to SP, if he comes in in the 9th inning he'll pitch like a reliever.

There's certainly some ideas we're discussing for the future to further tweak and adjust some of this, so please do keep the chat going about what you might ideally want to see happen. We certainly can't make everyone happy, since a lot of people have very divergent views of this, but there's always more we can do to help.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

I'm sure we'll keep tweaking how SP vs RP are rated every year until we get the right mix.

I'll start with the usual that I have to remind people on - relievers are rated on more than just 2 pitches, but the top 9 are much more heavily weighted than SP. And all pitchers in-game values for stamina and stuff depend on their usage - just because you have a guy set to SP, if he comes in in the 9th inning he'll pitch like a reliever.

There's certainly some ideas we're discussing for the future to further tweak and adjust some of this, so please do keep the chat going about what you might ideally want to see happen. We certainly can't make everyone happy, since a lot of people have very divergent views of this, but there's always more we can do to help.

While you're looking into this stuff, can you give some though to adding the option to early historical play for teams to have pitching staffs instead of rotations. That way we could set the game to use 6, 7 or 8 man staffs and the AI would consider all of them available to start if needed. Of course the top 2 or 3 guys should get the meat of the starts, but the rest of the guys should accumulate starts over the course of the season as well.

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

I'm sure we'll keep tweaking how SP vs RP are rated every year until we get the right mix.

I'll start with the usual that I have to remind people on - relievers are rated on more than just 2 pitches, but the top 9 are much more heavily weighted than SP. And all pitchers in-game values for stamina and stuff depend on their usage - just because you have a guy set to SP, if he comes in in the 9th inning he'll pitch like a reliever.

There's certainly some ideas we're discussing for the future to further tweak and adjust some of this, so please do keep the chat going about what you might ideally want to see happen. We certainly can't make everyone happy, since a lot of people have very divergent views of this, but there's always more we can do to help.

Please allow for some way to tell pitchers how many innings (or hitters) they will be expected to pitch (face).

The pitching revolution is here. Pitchers aren't being used strictly as starters/relievers.

The way the game (OOTP) is now, it's impossible to have 2 pitchers face 18 hitters each. The first pitcher doesn't give it enough, and the second runs out of gas,

[joefromchicago]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

I'll start with the usual that I have to remind people on - relievers are rated on more than just 2 pitches, but the top 9 are much more heavily weighted than SP..

9 pitches? Who are these guys? Yu Darvish?

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

9 pitches? Who are these guys? Yu Darvish?

I think he means top 2.