A metaphysical question

kriscolic · 08-19-2020, 11:52 PM

In real life, a starter faces 7 batters, fails to record an out, and is pulled from the game. The play-by-play guy says, "He just didn't have it today". Maybe. Alternatively one could argue that 7 consecutive batters reaching is just a run of bad luck, a few bad rolls of the dice or flips of the coin. In real life, it's not clear whether or not pitchers have days where they "just don't have it". For all intents and purposes the fact of the matter is unknowable.

In OOTP, though, it seems to me that the developers had to have made a choice. The "just don't have it" factor either is or isn't in the code. In OOTP there is a knowable fact of the matter. The developers simply have to tell us!

Should we ask the developers? Should they answer if we do? Real-life managers don't know the answer (though they behave as if it does exist) so perhaps, in the interest of realism, we shouldn't know either. But does that fact that in OOTP, as opposed to real life, there is an answer and that furthermore that answer is knowable change things? Is this part of the rules of the game? Are we entitled to know all of the rules in the first place?

ALB123 · 08-20-2020, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kriscolic

In real life, a starter faces 7 batters, fails to record an out, and is pulled from the game. The play-by-play guy says, "He just didn't have it today". Maybe. Alternatively one could argue that 7 consecutive batters reaching is just a run of bad luck, a few bad rolls of the dice or flips of the coin. In real life, it's not clear whether or not pitchers have days where they "just don't have it". For all intents and purposes the fact of the matter is unknowable.

In OOTP, though, it seems to me that the developers had to have made a choice. The "just don't have it" factor either is or isn't in the code. In OOTP there is a knowable fact of the matter. The developers simply have to tell us!

Should we ask the developers? Should they answer if we do? Real-life managers don't know the answer (though they behave as if it does exist) so perhaps, in the interest of realism, we shouldn't know either. But does that fact that in OOTP, as opposed to real life, there is an answer and that furthermore that answer is knowable change things? Is this part of the rules of the game? Are we entitled to know all of the rules in the first place?

I recently asked, to no one in particular, "Why is it so hard to make the animation perfectly match what's going on based on the play-by-play we read?" You know, why did that runner reach the base first, visually, in the animation, but he was called "out!" by the umpire, and the slower scrolling play-by-play confirms he was indeed out (based on the fact we all know that what the play-by-play reports is gospel and always has been)? I'm not a coder, but I'm not stupid either...yet, I just couldn't understand why it should be so hard.

One of the developers, Matt, responded to me. It's not some super long explanation of the inner workings, but it was a very good response, in my opinion. It made me open my eyes a little wider as to what's really going on when I lazily tap the spacebar when my team is at-bat...

It doesn't answer your question, but I think it's worth relating what you've asked to what I asked. Different questions, yes, but I believe there is some sort of similarity with the two. Maybe I'm wrong. If you get nothing out of this, I sincerely apologize. Thankfully it's not a long read.

https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...0&postcount=16

Sweed · 08-20-2020, 01:04 AM

For me and the way I play I never understand why anyone wants to know the ins and outs of the game engine? OOTP to me is a simulation of real life baseball, knowing that type of stuff takes away from the immersion I'm looking for.

Having said that I've had guys get pummeled early but left them in to take one for the team and save a weary bullpen. I've had these guys continue to get hammered and I've had them "turn it around" and shut out a team the rest of the way. Like real life I can only assume he "found it", and that's the way I like it.

So my vote would be "no" on the developer giving a definitive answer.

Brad K · 08-20-2020, 01:22 AM

So if there are no bad days and we know it then we'll play like there's no bad days and we'll have an advantage unless AI also plays as if there are no bad days. If there are no bad days and AI knows it and plays it that way other things change, like starters getting more innings and perhaps, if starters are better than relievers, scoring going down. Or maybe, regardless of what happened early, there's more scoring mid/late because a poorer fresh reliever is better than a better tired starter, which batters would be facing more often without the "bad day" situation pulling starters out.

Then those playing historical complain the results aren't historical. And those playing with game created players might say the creations aren't accurate because they don't perform like real players.

I think its best that we don't know whether or not there are "bad days".

ALB123 · 08-20-2020, 01:56 AM

I am 100% in agreement with Sweed and Brad K. I don't really want to know the answer to that question, nor do I want to know anything that I could use to intentionally influence the experience one way or another. God forbid the devs say, "Yeah...We put a little surprise in there where sometimes your pitcher is just not gonna have it that day..." could you imagine the forums when someone's #1 gets knocked around two starts in a row? Or, if someone loses to a last place team twice, both their #1 & #2 pitchers taking losses? Oh mama...

I don't care if the devs actually do it, but I really don't want to know anything about it. I'm the type of OOTP player who has quite a few house rules that I never break. Heck, if I even think I'm getting over on the AI with a trade, I will always toss in another player even though they were already pleased with the deal. Only a 1 or 1.5 star at the most, but still. Too bad the AI never returns the favor... LOL

mytreds · 08-20-2020, 11:59 AM

Personally I don’t want this game to do everything for me. I like to have enough room to RP and use my imagination.

08-20-2020, 01:56 AM	#5
ALB123 All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2020 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 638	I am 100% in agreement with Sweed and Brad K. I don't really want to know the answer to that question, nor do I want to know *anything* that I could use to intentionally influence the experience one way or another. God forbid the devs say, "Yeah...We put a little surprise in there where sometimes your pitcher is just not gonna have it that day..." could you imagine the forums when someone's #1 gets knocked around two starts in a row? Or, if someone loses to a last place team twice, both their #1 & #2 pitchers taking losses? Oh mama... I don't care if the devs actually do it, but I really don't want to know anything about it. I'm the type of OOTP player who has quite a few house rules that I never break. Heck, if I even think I'm getting over on the AI with a trade, I will always toss in another player even though they were already pleased with the deal. Only a 1 or 1.5 star at the most, but still. Too bad the AI never returns the favor... LOL __________________ "I'm on the side that's always lost against the side of Heaven. I'm on the side of snake-eyes tossed against the side of seven" - Leonard Cohen "The Captain"

08-19-2020, 11:52 PM	#1
kriscolic Minors (Double A) Join Date: Aug 2020 Posts: 141	A metaphysical question In real life, a starter faces 7 batters, fails to record an out, and is pulled from the game. The play-by-play guy says, "He just didn't have it today". Maybe. Alternatively one could argue that 7 consecutive batters reaching is just a run of bad luck, a few bad rolls of the dice or flips of the coin. In real life, it's not clear whether or not pitchers have days where they "just don't have it". For all intents and purposes the fact of the matter is unknowable. In OOTP, though, it seems to me that the developers had to have made a choice. The "just don't have it" factor either is or isn't in the code. In OOTP there is a knowable fact of the matter. The developers simply have to tell us! Should we ask the developers? Should they answer if we do? Real-life managers don't know the answer (though they behave as if it does exist) so perhaps, in the interest of realism, we shouldn't know either. But does that fact that in OOTP, as opposed to real life, there is an answer and that furthermore that answer is knowable change things? Is this part of the rules of the game? Are we entitled to know all of the rules in the first place?

08-20-2020, 01:04 AM	#3
Sweed Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 6,940	For me and the way I play I never understand why anyone wants to know the ins and outs of the game engine? OOTP to me is a simulation of real life baseball, knowing that type of stuff takes away from the immersion I'm looking for. Having said that I've had guys get pummeled early but left them in to take one for the team and save a weary bullpen. I've had these guys continue to get hammered and I've had them "turn it around" and shut out a team the rest of the way. Like real life I can only assume he "found it", and that's the way I like it. So my vote would be "no" on the developer giving a definitive answer.

08-20-2020, 01:22 AM	#4
Brad K Banned Join Date: May 2016 Location: St Petersburg Florida USA Posts: 6,693 Infractions: 0/2 (4)	So if there are no bad days and we know it then we'll play like there's no bad days and we'll have an advantage unless AI also plays as if there are no bad days. If there are no bad days and AI knows it and plays it that way other things change, like starters getting more innings and perhaps, if starters are better than relievers, scoring going down. Or maybe, regardless of what happened early, there's more scoring mid/late because a poorer fresh reliever is better than a better tired starter, which batters would be facing more often without the "bad day" situation pulling starters out. Then those playing historical complain the results aren't historical. And those playing with game created players might say the creations aren't accurate because they don't perform like real players. I think its best that we don't know whether or not there are "bad days".

08-20-2020, 11:59 AM	#6
mytreds All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2019 Posts: 1,182	Personally I don’t want this game to do everything for me. I like to have enough room to RP and use my imagination.