this is so very wrong.

chinaski · 03-26-2003, 09:21 PM

The 2003 NL RoY is 1B. <a href="http://www.slowdime.com/ootp/players/p406.html">Lyle Overbay</a>... Click the link to see his stats.

At the end of 2003, the D-backs sign this guy, 1B. <a href="http://www.slowdime.com/ootp/players/p1005.html">Eric Munson</a>, and send 1B Overbay down too AAA for the 1st time ever (as far as the games concerned).

Theres is not a single logical reason why the game should shun their <b>Rookie of the Year</b> for some scrub just because his talent for hitting homers is Brilliant.

This is nasty. This should never happen. Munson is a DH at best, he batted .264 in AAA in 2003 and only .199 in 2004. Meanwhile Overbay was pluggin away in AAA with .346 average and almost 200 hits for almost all of 2004. Just look at Munsons fielding ratings, hes barely able to bend over.

If a guy wins RoY, he should be atleast flagged as such, so the game knows just what kind of player it has.

When 2005 came around, Overbays contract was up and the Dbacks lost him to Seattle. Oddly enough, the same situation came up in Seattle, but this time he was looked over for Olerud - which is slightly understandable. They left him in AAA all year batting .368 (with a few call ups). <b>Then</b> he gets called up for the post season, single handily winning the World Series for the Mariners. He knocks 5 homers for 18 rbi in the 2005 postseason.

Get this, every series in the postseason went the distance for the Mariners, and every deciding final game of the series(s) Overbay had the GWRBI.

man.

fix this !@!#@#$

AsTrOFaN · 03-26-2003, 11:16 PM

Sluggers tend to be favored over contact hitter. Overbay is only 2 stars to Munson's 2.5 (but that is too close to be really considered)...I wonder why Arizona didn't move Munson over to third and leave Overbay at first. I've seen this type of behavior before (erhm, exhibit it at times)..

vtbub · 03-27-2003, 12:31 AM

Kevin Maas and Joe Charbonneau come to mind.

Royal07 · 03-27-2003, 01:17 AM

Here is something that I witnessed tonight in my personal league, using GEForces newest roster set, with contracts. It fits in with THIS IS SO VERY WRONG...

Atlanta: Released P Greg Maddux, he refused assignment to minors.
Los Angeles: Released P Kevin Brown, he refused assignment to minors.

Ealier in the year, David Wells was released, but picked up by Baltimore days later. Currently he is leading the AL in wins and ERA. As to why he was dropped? Poor Ai? I dont know, it is a mystery to me.

This makes me sick. I love the the game, but I am getting tired of the unrealistic AI moves. You may comment with ratings, smatings, this would never happen ever in baseball.

sixfour210 · 03-27-2003, 01:28 AM

I think the reason why they never happen in real baseball is that the players' "ratings" never drop nearly as much as they do in the game. Many players, in real life, retire because of personal reasons or because they can't handle the rigorous training anymore. But if they decided to play, they wouldn't go from a 3.00 ERA to a 11.50 one or a .340 average to a .220 at least in most cases.

It's usually a gradual change. And by the time the player has gradually diminished his skills, his contract is up. The one thing that messes a lot of this up is that you may sign a player to a 3 year contract at the age of 34 where he may have displayed brilliant talents and by the time he is 35 or 36, they may be poor or fair. This simply should not be, unless the player is injured.

Most players, in reality, won't embarass themselves by playing out a year in which their skills are diminished. They will retire. That's why I say a player's playing career should not start to fall apart until he is around 40, but he may opt to retire before hand, say around 37 or so. This would make it more realistic, IMO.

chinaski · 03-27-2003, 01:49 AM

Well, i dont want to turn this into a "named player" was dropped thread. However, i have noticed the same very thing with Wells. Everytime i start a new career with GForces rosters, Yanks drop Wells, he gets picked up by Detroit, Tampa, Balt or some other scrub team and then he leads that conference in era the rest of the year.

With the case i posted at the beginning of this thread... the point i was trying to make was that Arizona shouldnt have signed Munson to begin with. The AI should have taken into account that their 1B just won the RotY and had amazing stats. The game just doesnt do that, and it really should.

Scouts in real life base their decisions on the statistics a player puts up, this game to a degree should as well.

"Kid, you just won the rookie of the year, batted .326, hit 25 home runs and had 100 rbi's. So we decided to demote you for a guy who batted .265 in AAA last year. Oh and he really sucks a 1B. Good luck."

guh. tell me this isnt really supposed to happen, this has to be an oversight.

chinaski · 03-27-2003, 01:57 AM

As far as Joe Charbonneau and Maas go, they were just one hit wonders. Didnt both of them go down due to personal and health reasons?

JWay · 03-27-2003, 02:26 AM

well the game will always go for ratings, I doubt if stats has anything to do with it.

statfreak · 03-27-2003, 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JWay
well the game will always go for ratings, I doubt if stats has anything to do with it.

I guess that's the point of the post.

I could care less what someone's ratings were, if they are hitting .300 with 20+ HR, I'd expect to see them in the starting lineup, not find them in AAA because the AI signed a .200 30HR type guy.

I would like to see the AI pay more attention to stats and play the player whose on a hot streak over a guy with better ratings, but in a slump. I realize all the AI really sees is 1's and 0's and it most likely will never be able to evaluate the players any other way than through the ratings.

Just frustrating to see someone win an award one year and be playing in AAA the next.

Treches · 03-27-2003, 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JWay
well the game will always go for ratings, I doubt if stats has anything to do with it.

Stats do have and should have everything to do with it; otherwise, it would be utterly ludicrous. This is performance we're talking here not potential. Problem is, as noted, the game favors homers way too much (not only regarding stats but also ratings, i.e. draft).

CubsSox · 03-27-2003, 05:41 AM

What I find totally unrealistic is David Wells in my season went from a three and a half star pitcher, who made the all-star team... then I guess the "Old Age" kicked and he dropped down to a one star shmuck! He didn't win a single game after that.

As sixfour said, when a player decides to continue playing their skills won't crap out on them drastic in the span of one season. Similar to that, they wouldn't crap out drastically on a course of one season. I could see if Wells dropped a half star, or maybe a whole star. But not two and a half stars!

yaydeep99 · 03-27-2003, 06:45 AM

Yeah I had something similar to that happen to me. J.T. Trujillo a 4 star MR went down to a 1 star in about 6 months.

Sad part is im paying his sorry ass 3 million for this year and he refuses assignment to the minors lol. I don't like how drastically players just drop in ratings. Needs to be tweaked IMHO.

MisawaTD91 · 03-27-2003, 09:37 AM

Mike Remlinger is my best (or worst) example. In each of the 2003 seasons I've run with GForce's roster, Remlinger went from a 5 star lights-out closer (9/8/8/6) through May, to 4 stars in June, 3 in July, 2 in August, and 1 (usually around 3/5/5/2) at season's end. And after that he still has 2 years/$2.485M left on his contract and refuses assignment! I hope this implosion with Remlinger doesn't mirror reality; Jeff Fassero comes to mind.

I Am The Game · 03-27-2003, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by yaydeep99
Yeah I had something similar to that happen to me. J.T. Trujillo a 4 star MR went down to a 1 star in about 6 months. Sad part is im paying his sorry ass 3 million for this year and he refuses assignment to the minors lol. I don't like how drastically players just drop in ratings. Needs to be tweaked IMHO.

Look at Rich Garces. Before 2002 he'd be a 4 star MR in OOTP, now he'd be a 1 star.

It happens. Just need to look around carefully. Scott Elarton is another one. Players do drop in MLB, for unknown reasons.

PineTar · 03-27-2003, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by I Am The Game
Look at Rich Garces. Before 2002 he'd be a 4 star MR in OOTP, now he'd be a 1 star.

It happens. Just need to look around carefully. Scott Elarton is another one. Players do drop in MLB, for unknown reasons.

To be fair, Elarton didn't decline for "unknown" reasons. He's had major arm trouble which required surgery.

evtevt · 03-27-2003, 10:26 AM

This is a bit off topic but I played a softball game against Joe Charbonneau once and he mashed every ball about 400+ feet, even when we pitched it a foot or two outside to walk him. Absolutely incredible. Goes to show that even the worst or has been players from MLB, have great talent.

Mark Eichorn also pitches in my baseball league but I have yet to face him. I'm itching for the opportunity though. He's one of the better pitchers in the league.

I Am The Game · 03-27-2003, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by PineTar
To be fair, Elarton didn't decline for "unknown" reasons. He's had major arm trouble which required surgery.

In 2001 he was 4-8 with a 7.14 ERA in 20 starts with Houston, and then got put on the DL on July 17th, then got traded to Colorado at the trade deadline for Astacio, where he remained on the DL until September, where he returned to make 4 starts, going 0-2 with a 6.65 ERA, and then missed the 2002 season.

ctorg · 03-27-2003, 10:50 AM

I think one way to at least somewhat fix the problem is to not have player ratings be biased towards stats, possibly to a degree affected by the skills of your scout.

In other words, imagine a guy hits .300 with 33 homers in 1999, but he's 36 years old. His actual ratings drop off before the next season, but the scouts don't realize this until they see him play. Therefore, he has ratings that are higher than they might otherwise be. If he continues to put up stellar numbers despite his ratings, his ratings remain high. Perhaps a "Legendary" scout notices this sooner just by watching him in batting practice, and his ratings are more accurate.

Just a thought.

Royal07 · 03-27-2003, 12:21 PM

Yea i agree that stats MUST matter, to a what degree I am not sure. My earlier post wasnt meant to say that I love Maddux and he should stay on the squad no matter what, but instead his stats are excellent and should be recognized.

I mean if I didnt know who these players were (IE ficticious league) then I wouldnt notice the problem so much, but I can guarantee that this problem exists in all OOTP leagues.

I brought this up a few days ago (great players being dumped) and I got hammered with the thought that the game only sees potential and ratings, it doesnt look at the whole picture (current performance, etc.), therein lies the problem.

I really hope that something can be done so that the AI doesnt perform as many insane moves, plus I hope that the time in which a player gains/loses stars can be altered to be more realistic.

Dont get me wrong, the game is amazing, but it still needs a lot of work!

ctorg · 03-27-2003, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Royal07
I brought this up a few days ago (great players being dumped) and I got hammered with the thought that the game only sees potential and ratings, it doesnt look at the whole picture (current performance, etc.), therein lies the problem.

I think the key is to not bring up real players when making the argument. Even if your argument is valid (which I think it is here), that automatically prompts everyone to remind you that the game doesn't know people's names. The reason is that the majority of the people who have had problems are people who use real current players and feel that the computer isn't behaving realistically with them, and when that's the problem (i.e. handling them as a real manager would in real life), it's not OOTP that's at fault, but the roster set.

So when making these arguments, one should avoid naming names (at least if they are known players).

03-26-2003, 09:21 PM	#1
chinaski Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: end of the bar Posts: 296	this is so very wrong. The 2003 NL RoY is 1B. <a href="http://www.slowdime.com/ootp/players/p406.html">Lyle Overbay</a>... Click the link to see his stats. At the end of 2003, the D-backs sign this guy, 1B. <a href="http://www.slowdime.com/ootp/players/p1005.html">Eric Munson</a>, and send 1B Overbay down too AAA for the 1st time ever (as far as the games concerned). Theres is not a single logical reason why the game should shun their <b>Rookie of the Year</b> for some scrub just because his talent for hitting homers is Brilliant. This is nasty. This should never happen. Munson is a DH at best, he batted .264 in AAA in 2003 and only .199 in 2004. Meanwhile Overbay was pluggin away in AAA with .346 average and almost 200 hits for almost all of 2004. Just look at Munsons fielding ratings, hes barely able to bend over. If a guy wins RoY, he should be atleast flagged as such, so the game knows just what kind of player it has. When 2005 came around, Overbays contract was up and the Dbacks lost him to Seattle. Oddly enough, the same situation came up in Seattle, but this time he was looked over for Olerud - which is slightly understandable. They left him in AAA all year batting .368 (with a few call ups). <b>Then</b> he gets called up for the post season, single handily winning the World Series for the Mariners. He knocks 5 homers for 18 rbi in the 2005 postseason. Get this, every series in the postseason went the distance for the Mariners, and every deciding final game of the series(s) Overbay had the GWRBI. man. fix this !@!#@#$

03-27-2003, 01:17 AM	#4
Royal07 Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 30	Here is something that I witnessed tonight in my personal league, using GEForces newest roster set, with contracts. It fits in with THIS IS SO VERY WRONG... Atlanta: Released P Greg Maddux, he refused assignment to minors. Los Angeles: Released P Kevin Brown, he refused assignment to minors. Ealier in the year, David Wells was released, but picked up by Baltimore days later. Currently he is leading the AL in wins and ERA. As to why he was dropped? Poor Ai? I dont know, it is a mystery to me. This makes me sick. I love the the game, but I am getting tired of the unrealistic AI moves. You may comment with ratings, smatings, this would never happen ever in baseball. Last edited by Royal07; 03-27-2003 at 01:24 AM.

03-27-2003, 01:28 AM	#5
sixfour210 All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,227	I think the reason why they never happen in real baseball is that the players' "ratings" never drop nearly as much as they do in the game. Many players, in real life, retire because of personal reasons or because they can't handle the rigorous training anymore. But if they decided to play, they wouldn't go from a 3.00 ERA to a 11.50 one or a .340 average to a .220 at least in most cases. It's usually a gradual change. And by the time the player has gradually diminished his skills, his contract is up. The one thing that messes a lot of this up is that you may sign a player to a 3 year contract at the age of 34 where he may have displayed brilliant talents and by the time he is 35 or 36, they may be poor or fair. This simply should not be, unless the player is injured. Most players, in reality, won't embarass themselves by playing out a year in which their skills are diminished. They will retire. That's why I say a player's playing career should not start to fall apart until he is around 40, but he may opt to retire before hand, say around 37 or so. This would make it more realistic, IMO. __________________

03-27-2003, 01:57 AM	#7
chinaski Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: end of the bar Posts: 296	As far as Joe Charbonneau and Maas go, they were just one hit wonders. Didnt both of them go down due to personal and health reasons? Last edited by chinaski; 03-27-2003 at 03:30 AM.

03-27-2003, 05:41 AM	#11
CubsSox Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 206	What I find totally unrealistic is David Wells in my season went from a three and a half star pitcher, who made the all-star team... then I guess the "Old Age" kicked and he dropped down to a one star shmuck! He didn't win a single game after that. As sixfour said, when a player decides to continue playing their skills won't crap out on them drastic in the span of one season. Similar to that, they wouldn't crap out drastically on a course of one season. I could see if Wells dropped a half star, or maybe a whole star. But not two and a half stars! __________________ It's me... Chae!

03-26-2003, 11:16 PM	#2
AsTrOFaN Major Leagues Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 334	Sluggers tend to be favored over contact hitter. Overbay is only 2 stars to Munson's 2.5 (but that is too close to be really considered)...I wonder why Arizona didn't move Munson over to third and leave Overbay at first. I've seen this type of behavior before (erhm, exhibit it at times)..

03-27-2003, 12:31 AM	#3
vtbub Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Burlington, VT Posts: 143	Kevin Maas and Joe Charbonneau come to mind.

03-27-2003, 01:49 AM	#6
chinaski Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: end of the bar Posts: 296	Well, i dont want to turn this into a "named player" was dropped thread. However, i have noticed the same very thing with Wells. Everytime i start a new career with GForces rosters, Yanks drop Wells, he gets picked up by Detroit, Tampa, Balt or some other scrub team and then he leads that conference in era the rest of the year. With the case i posted at the beginning of this thread... the point i was trying to make was that Arizona shouldnt have signed Munson to begin with. The AI should have taken into account that their 1B just won the RotY and had amazing stats. The game just doesnt do that, and it really should. Scouts in real life base their decisions on the statistics a player puts up, this game to a degree should as well. "Kid, you just won the rookie of the year, batted .326, hit 25 home runs and had 100 rbi's. So we decided to demote you for a guy who batted .265 in AAA last year. Oh and he really sucks a 1B. Good luck." guh. tell me this isnt really supposed to happen, this has to be an oversight.

03-27-2003, 02:26 AM	#8
JWay Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Sioux Falls, SD Posts: 5,021	well the game will always go for ratings, I doubt if stats has anything to do with it.

03-27-2003, 06:45 AM	#12
yaydeep99 Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 48	Yeah I had something similar to that happen to me. J.T. Trujillo a 4 star MR went down to a 1 star in about 6 months. Sad part is im paying his sorry ass 3 million for this year and he refuses assignment to the minors lol. I don't like how drastically players just drop in ratings. Needs to be tweaked IMHO.

03-27-2003, 09:37 AM	#13
MisawaTD91 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Oak Forest, IL Posts: 192	Mike Remlinger is my best (or worst) example. In each of the 2003 seasons I've run with GForce's roster, Remlinger went from a 5 star lights-out closer (9/8/8/6) through May, to 4 stars in June, 3 in July, 2 in August, and 1 (usually around 3/5/5/2) at season's end. And after that he still has 2 years/$2.485M left on his contract and refuses assignment! I hope this implosion with Remlinger doesn't mirror reality; Jeff Fassero comes to mind.

03-27-2003, 10:26 AM	#16
evtevt Bat Boy Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 17	A bit off topic but... This is a bit off topic but I played a softball game against Joe Charbonneau once and he mashed every ball about 400+ feet, even when we pitched it a foot or two outside to walk him. Absolutely incredible. Goes to show that even the worst or has been players from MLB, have great talent. Mark Eichorn also pitches in my baseball league but I have yet to face him. I'm itching for the opportunity though. He's one of the better pitchers in the league.

03-27-2003, 10:50 AM	#18
ctorg Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 9,848	I think one way to at least somewhat fix the problem is to not have player ratings be biased towards stats, possibly to a degree affected by the skills of your scout. In other words, imagine a guy hits .300 with 33 homers in 1999, but he's 36 years old. His actual ratings drop off before the next season, but the scouts don't realize this until they see him play. Therefore, he has ratings that are higher than they might otherwise be. If he continues to put up stellar numbers despite his ratings, his ratings remain high. Perhaps a "Legendary" scout notices this sooner just by watching him in batting practice, and his ratings are more accurate. Just a thought. __________________ My music "When the trees blow back and forth, that's what makes the wind." - Steven Wright Fjord emena pancreas thorax fornicate marmalade morpheme proteolysis smaxa cabana offal srue vitriol grope hallelujah lentils

03-27-2003, 12:21 PM	#19
Royal07 Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 30	Yea i agree that stats MUST matter, to a what degree I am not sure. My earlier post wasnt meant to say that I love Maddux and he should stay on the squad no matter what, but instead his stats are excellent and should be recognized. I mean if I didnt know who these players were (IE ficticious league) then I wouldnt notice the problem so much, but I can guarantee that this problem exists in all OOTP leagues. I brought this up a few days ago (great players being dumped) and I got hammered with the thought that the game only sees potential and ratings, it doesnt look at the whole picture (current performance, etc.), therein lies the problem. I really hope that something can be done so that the AI doesnt perform as many insane moves, plus I hope that the time in which a player gains/loses stars can be altered to be more realistic. Dont get me wrong, the game is amazing, but it still needs a lot of work!