Why is This an Earned Run?

Willie M · 05-11-2018, 07:59 PM

2 outs, runner on first base.

Pitch is made, catcher makes pick-off attempt to 1st. Ball is thrown away, runner goes to second base.

Same batter singles and run scores.

Next batter strikes out.

Pitcher is charged an earned run. Should he have been? From my understanding at most the batter would have advanced to 3rd without the error, and then would have not scored on the strikeout.

Qeltar · 05-11-2018, 08:20 PM

It's not. Assuming you are sure it's a single -- if you're judging from the 3D graphics, it can be a bit deceptive, so you'd have to check the log.

Willie M · 05-14-2018, 01:39 PM

It just happened again. Two outs. Single and error in OF, runner advances to second. Scored a 1B in the box score.

Next batter singles, runner scores. Batter after that flies out, inning ends.

The initial runner would have never scored without the error but it's charged as an earned run.

fcabanski · 05-14-2018, 02:33 PM

" The initial runner would have never scored without the error but it's charged as an earned run."

He could have stolen 3rd and stolen home.

Yes, however, this seems like a mistake. Are you sure you didn't miss any plays?

Willie M · 05-15-2018, 01:53 PM

100% - I do play by play and this time I even double checked everything.

BIG17EASY · 05-15-2018, 02:47 PM

Definitely should be unearned in both cases.

Let'sGoBraves · 05-22-2018, 11:19 AM

In neither of the instances you described did the run score as a result of the error. They both scored on batted balls. The pickoff play doesn't count the same as a throwing error on what would have been a force out at first..say from a shortstop on a ground ball. In an event such as that and the error would have been the third out, from what I have read all subsequent runs after the error on the third out are technically unearned. In the two examples you cite the runners advanced due to the error but did not score. They scored on singles and thus both runs are earned.

Qeltar · 05-22-2018, 12:10 PM

That's incorrect, sorry. It specifically says in the rules that the official scorer has to "reconstruct the inning without the errors" to determine whether or not the runs would have scored without the errors, "giving the benefit of the doubt always to the pitcher in determining which bases would have been reached by runners had there been errorless play."

Section 9.16 (d)

"No run shall be earned when the scoring runner’s advance has been aided by an error, a passed ball or defensive interference or obstruction, if in the official scorer’s judgment the run would not have scored without the aid of such misplay."

Those are not earned runs.

Matt Arnold · 05-22-2018, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qeltar

That's incorrect, sorry. It specifically says in the rules that the official scorer has to "reconstruct the inning without the errors" to determine whether or not the runs would have scored without the errors, "giving the benefit of the doubt always to the pitcher in determining which bases would have been reached by runners had there been errorless play."

Section 9.16 (d)

"No run shall be earned when the scoring runner’s advance has been aided by an error, a passed ball or defensive interference or obstruction, if in the official scorer’s judgment the run would not have scored without the aid of such misplay."

Those are not earned runs.

Yeah, they shouldn't be earned runs. We try to be as accurate as possible, but ER scoring is tough to get all the cases working, and that's deep in the heart of code that Markus wrote 15 years ago, so it's dangerous to venture down those paths.

And then things get even tougher when you factor in the "other" rules with ER, in that if you change pitchers in the inning now you have runs which should be tagged as "team unearned" runs, however to the pitcher in question they are earned runs (this is the weird out, out, error, change pitcher, HR, where the HR should be charged as an earned run to the 2nd pitcher, but it should be unearned for the team). So, yeah, please do keep reporting things like this, since we will get around to fixing them eventually. But this is not always something that is as easy to fix as you may think.

Qeltar · 05-22-2018, 12:40 PM

Oh I definitely know that this isn't easy, was just clarifying what the rulebook says.

Any time you are trying to program anything to emulate what IRL requires "judgment" you are going to have your hands full. Computers are not good at "judgment" and the game handles most situations pretty well.

05-11-2018, 07:59 PM	#1
Willie M Minors (Double A) Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 159	Why is This an Earned Run? 2 outs, runner on first base. Pitch is made, catcher makes pick-off attempt to 1st. Ball is thrown away, runner goes to second base. Same batter singles and run scores. Next batter strikes out. Pitcher is charged an earned run. Should he have been? From my understanding at most the batter would have advanced to 3rd without the error, and then would have not scored on the strikeout.

05-11-2018, 08:20 PM	#2
Qeltar Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 382	It's not. Assuming you are sure it's a single -- if you're judging from the 3D graphics, it can be a bit deceptive, so you'd have to check the log.

05-14-2018, 01:39 PM	#3
Willie M Minors (Double A) Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 159	It just happened again. Two outs. Single and error in OF, runner advances to second. Scored a 1B in the box score. Next batter singles, runner scores. Batter after that flies out, inning ends. The initial runner would have never scored without the error but it's charged as an earned run.

05-14-2018, 02:33 PM	#4
fcabanski Minors (Double A) Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 170	" The initial runner would have never scored without the error but it's charged as an earned run." He could have stolen 3rd and stolen home. Yes, however, this seems like a mistake. Are you sure you didn't miss any plays?

05-15-2018, 01:53 PM	#5
Willie M Minors (Double A) Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 159	100% - I do play by play and this time I even double checked everything.

05-15-2018, 02:47 PM	#6
BIG17EASY Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 3,291	Definitely should be unearned in both cases.

05-22-2018, 11:19 AM	#7
Let'sGoBraves Minors (Single A) Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 98	In neither of the instances you described did the run score as a result of the error. They both scored on batted balls. The pickoff play doesn't count the same as a throwing error on what would have been a force out at first..say from a shortstop on a ground ball. In an event such as that and the error would have been the third out, from what I have read all subsequent runs after the error on the third out are technically unearned. In the two examples you cite the runners advanced due to the error but did not score. They scored on singles and thus both runs are earned.

05-22-2018, 12:10 PM	#8
Qeltar Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 382	That's incorrect, sorry. It specifically says in the rules that the official scorer has to "reconstruct the inning without the errors" to determine whether or not the runs would have scored without the errors, "giving the benefit of the doubt always to the pitcher in determining which bases would have been reached by runners had there been errorless play." Section 9.16 (d) "No run shall be earned when the scoring runner’s advance has been aided by an error, a passed ball or defensive interference or obstruction, if in the official scorer’s judgment the run would not have scored without the aid of such misplay." Those are not earned runs.

05-22-2018, 12:40 PM	#10
Qeltar Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 382	Oh I definitely know that this isn't easy, was just clarifying what the rulebook says. Any time you are trying to program anything to emulate what IRL requires "judgment" you are going to have your hands full. Computers are not good at "judgment" and the game handles most situations pretty well.