Advancing from second on ground balls to the left side

Qeltar · 05-05-2018, 08:18 PM

I've noticed this happens pretty often, and I found it interesting. I quite frequently see balls to 3B or SS and the runner on second just strolls right by him to third.

I'm not saying it is wrong, mind you. Maybe the OOTP guys have data on how often this happens. It could also be that the 3D representation isn't accurately conveying special situations like having to charge a slow roller, or the guy on second getting a particularly good jump.

It definitely goes against "standard baseball wisdom" that you need to hit the ball to the right side to advance the runner from second. This is what nearly all other baseball games use, which of course doesn't mean it is right, but definitely makes it stand out.

Unfortunately my attempts to find stats on how often this happens in real baseball were not fruitful.

RchW · 05-05-2018, 08:25 PM

How do you define pretty often? My non-scientific observation says it's pretty rare over several thousand GPO.

Qeltar · 05-05-2018, 08:44 PM

It's pretty hard to quantify, yeah. I mean, the situation itself is not especially common.

Some quick grepping and counting in the game log files of an archive from last season shows about 1,800 instances of a ground out 5-3 or 6-3 being followed by text saying "to third". But that doesn't tell us how often the runner was on second but stayed put, and some of those may not be the play in question, I am not sure. At any rate, I've seen it at least twice in about a dozen spring training games this season.

I'm going to track this in the games I play and see just how frequently it happens. I'm mostly interested in how they decide this, because in every other baseball game I've played, the AI will never try to take third on a ball to the left side, and if a human tries to, they usually get tagged out or caught in a pickle.

bigd51 · 05-05-2018, 08:48 PM

Most likely, it's the 3D engine not displaying properly. I've seen times where a ball is hit hard right to the 2B, he gloves it cleanly, and doesn't even attempt a throw to first. No error, just an infield single.

Other times, I've seen a runner on second, ball is hit to the outfield, the outfielder hits the cutoff man before the runner even reaches third, but the runner rounds third and heads home while the cutoff man just sits there and watches him score.

You'll see things like that happen w/ the engine here and there, but it's not that often.

RchW · 05-06-2018, 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qeltar

It's pretty hard to quantify, yeah. I mean, the situation itself is not especially common.

Some quick grepping and counting in the game log files of an archive from last season shows about 1,800 instances of a ground out 5-3 or 6-3 being followed by text saying "to third". But that doesn't tell us how often the runner was on second but stayed put, and some of those may not be the play in question, I am not sure. At any rate, I've seen it at least twice in about a dozen spring training games this season.

I'm going to track this in the games I play and see just how frequently it happens. I'm mostly interested in how they decide this, because in every other baseball game I've played, the AI will never try to take third on a ball to the left side, and if a human tries to, they usually get tagged out or caught in a pickle.

What other games are you referring to?

Qeltar · 05-06-2018, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigd51

Most likely, it's the 3D engine not displaying properly.

Okay but it's consistent with what the game log shows... groundout 5-3 and runner advancing from second to third.

I'm going to track these occurrences at least in the games I play and see what comes of it.

Sweed · 05-06-2018, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qeltar

Okay but it's consistent with what the game log shows... groundout 5-3 and runner advancing from second to third.

I'm going to track these occurrences at least in the games I play and see what comes of it.

I think it is a shortcoming of the current 3d that will continue to evolve. Since the game isn't physics based the underlying play and result is "what happened" and the 3d engine does it's best to show that. Do game logs note ball location? Can you tell if these balls are taking the SS towards 2b from the game log? For the ones to 3d are they pulling the 3b towards SS? Dependent on exactly where the ball goes this could account for an advance if nobody can get to third to cover.

In the old text only in my mind I would see it this way. With 3d in v19 some look questionable where the ball location is shown, IE straight to the SS or maybe even a step towards 3d. But again this could be the 3d model not showing the ball going where it actually is and it needs tweaking to match the underlying play result.

Off topic but....
I rarely look at game logs as they are mind numbingly boring and just hard to glance at for information. I wish we had a generated score sheet instead with path of ball shown. Much easier IMHO to glance over an inning and see what happened.

Qeltar · 05-06-2018, 11:41 AM

Yeah, it may depend on the situation. I'll probably have to pay attention to the play by play to see. (Usually I skip past that as I'm impatient.)

Calvert98 · 05-06-2018, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweed

I think it is a shortcoming of the current 3d that will continue to evolve. Since the game isn't physics based the underlying play and result is "what happened" and the 3d engine does it's best to show that. Do game logs note ball location? Can you tell if these balls are taking the SS towards 2b from the game log? For the ones to 3d are they pulling the 3b towards SS? Dependent on exactly where the ball goes this could account for an advance if nobody can get to third to cover.

In the old text only in my mind I would see it this way. With 3d in v19 some look questionable where the ball location is shown, IE straight to the SS or maybe even a step towards 3d. But again this could be the 3d model not showing the ball going where it actually is and it needs tweaking to match the underlying play result.

Off topic but....
I rarely look at game logs as they are mind numbingly boring and just hard to glance at for information. I wish we had a generated score sheet instead with path of ball shown. Much easier IMHO to glance over an inning and see what happened.

I think you are right here.

And per your last comment, as the 3D evolves, I expect players will be more and more inclined to use it as the only or main part of the their game "narrative". By that I mean, where they basically sit-back and watch the action, without necessarily checking the PBP text or game log, to confirm what just happened.

As someone who plays out all of his games, I really like the direction that OOTP 19's in-game 3D has taken, and very much want OOTPD to keep up the pace of making that part of the game even better.

Sweed · 05-06-2018, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calvert98

I think you are right here.

And per your last comment, as the 3D evolves, I expect players will be more and more inclined to use it as the only or main part of the their game "narrative". By that I mean, where they basically sit-back and watch the action, without necessarily checking the PBP text or game log, to confirm what just happened.

As someone who plays out all of his games, I really like the direction that OOTP 19's in-game 3D has taken, and very much want OOTPD to keep up the pace of making that part of the game even better.

Yeah, I played 'em out all too for 32 seasons, over many versions, and a third of the way through season 33.

Where I'd love the score sheet over the game log is to glance at games that grab my attention as I look at all of the days scores before advancing. Be nice on a 1 hitter, for instance, to instantly see when that hit occurred, was it an IF hit or a gapper, was the P in trouble because he walked 3 but they were all in the same inning, etc.?

Looking at the days scores and seeing one game that turned on a single inning and then "seeing" that inning reconstructed in a game log is so draining and almost puts me to sleep. Imagine how easy though it would be to just glance at a "scored" inning on a score sheet. In a couple of seconds you would know what happened. Entire games could be reviewed in seconds adding to the immersion

And to keep it on topic if the score sheet showed the ball path it would be easy to see why an advance from 2b to 3b occurred or even see why it shouldn't have

05-05-2018, 08:18 PM	#1
Qeltar Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 382	Advancing from second on ground balls to the left side I've noticed this happens pretty often, and I found it interesting. I quite frequently see balls to 3B or SS and the runner on second just strolls right by him to third. I'm not saying it is wrong, mind you. Maybe the OOTP guys have data on how often this happens. It could also be that the 3D representation isn't accurately conveying special situations like having to charge a slow roller, or the guy on second getting a particularly good jump. It definitely goes against "standard baseball wisdom" that you need to hit the ball to the right side to advance the runner from second. This is what nearly all other baseball games use, which of course doesn't mean it is right, but definitely makes it stand out. Unfortunately my attempts to find stats on how often this happens in real baseball were not fruitful.

05-05-2018, 08:25 PM	#2
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Toronto ON by way of Glasgow UK Posts: 15,629	How do you define pretty often? My non-scientific observation says it's pretty rare over several thousand GPO. __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

05-05-2018, 08:44 PM	#3
Qeltar Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 382	It's pretty hard to quantify, yeah. I mean, the situation itself is not especially common. Some quick grepping and counting in the game log files of an archive from last season shows about 1,800 instances of a ground out 5-3 or 6-3 being followed by text saying "to third". But that doesn't tell us how often the runner was on second but stayed put, and some of those may not be the play in question, I am not sure. At any rate, I've seen it at least twice in about a dozen spring training games this season. I'm going to track this in the games I play and see just how frequently it happens. I'm mostly interested in how they decide this, because in every other baseball game I've played, the AI will never try to take third on a ball to the left side, and if a human tries to, they usually get tagged out or caught in a pickle. Last edited by Qeltar; 05-05-2018 at 08:45 PM.

05-05-2018, 08:48 PM	#4
bigd51 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 277	Most likely, it's the 3D engine not displaying properly. I've seen times where a ball is hit hard right to the 2B, he gloves it cleanly, and doesn't even attempt a throw to first. No error, just an infield single. Other times, I've seen a runner on second, ball is hit to the outfield, the outfielder hits the cutoff man before the runner even reaches third, but the runner rounds third and heads home while the cutoff man just sits there and watches him score. You'll see things like that happen w/ the engine here and there, but it's not that often.

05-06-2018, 11:41 AM	#8
Qeltar Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 382	Yeah, it may depend on the situation. I'll probably have to pay attention to the play by play to see. (Usually I skip past that as I'm impatient.)