RP comes in with 9 run lead, but gets credited with save

krownroyal83 · 05-05-2018, 06:56 PM

Am I wrong or is this not a save? My RP comes in in the 7th and our team has a 10-1 lead. He finishes the game and the final score is 20-1. It shows him getting the save. Don't we have to be up 3 runs or less for him to get a save? We were up but 9 runs.

Wingedlion14 · 05-05-2018, 07:06 PM

A pitcher also can earn a save by finishing the last three innings of the game. Very rare now with modern bullpen use but it still happens occasionally.

philthepat · 05-05-2018, 07:26 PM

This is always the most famous one which gets mentioned with the 3 inning save...

https://www.baseball-reference.com/b...00708221.shtml

Qeltar · 05-05-2018, 07:56 PM

LOL that's pretty funny.

There are the occasional laughers like that but I generally like the rule. It would be hard to pick a magic number above which to say you don't get a save, and I like the idea of "your team had a big lead but you made sure it stayed that way" -- and a bit of a reward for chewing some innings.

Another subtlety in the save rule that trips people up is if the closer comes in with 1 or 2 out in the 9th and nobody on base. That's not a save situation. With a 3 run lead and the tying run not on base, at-bat or the on-deck circle, have to pitch a full inning.

BBGiovanni · 05-07-2018, 01:36 AM

The save is such a silly non-stat, I can't wait until it goes away. Today (IRL) Hunter Strickland came in for the 9th inning with a 3 run lead and gave up a walk, a single, a double, threw I forget how many pitches, had 2-3 mound visits, and lucked into a 1 pitch popout to get out of the inning after giving up 2 runs. With a save!

Qeltar · 05-07-2018, 08:00 AM

Well, it was created in large part as a response to the W/L stat, which is far stupider, so if they're going to get rid of one, they should get rid of the other first.

But baseball is a tradition-heavy game and I don't see any of them disappearing any time soon.

Also, like everything else, things even out. I actually had this come up in an ST game yesterday:

Pitcher 1 - 0.1 IP, 1 H, 2 BB, 3 ER -- gets a hold
Pitcher 2 - 1.1 IP, 1 H, 0 BB, 0 ER -- gets a blown save

The 1 hit Pitcher 2 gave up was a bases-clearing double to the first guy he faced.

Closers and setup guys get cheap saves/holds, but they also get blown saves when brought into very difficult situations.

Bunktown Ballers · 05-07-2018, 10:55 AM

There is so many types of questions like this in baseball. Is baseball the only game where each playing field is different the others....Football, Basketball, College & Pros, Soccer, all uniform playing fields but in baseball what is a 315 foot homerun in Boston is a can-o-corn in any other park. Oakland A's stadium foul territory is humongous compared to any other park. But all these little nuances is what makes BASEBALL the greatest game ever played. Just about in every game you watch there's a good chance you'll say, Hmmm, I've never seen that happen before. And yes saves is a inferior stat to most but not ever pitcher can close out a game. Just my view
BB
White Sox fan waiting patiently for the rebuild to be here

Qeltar · 05-07-2018, 11:04 AM

Those who hate the save may find this an interesting read.

BBGiovanni · 05-07-2018, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qeltar

Those who hate the save may find this an interesting read.

That is a good article. And I agree with you (I think), I actually think the blown save is probative. For the same reason the save is dumb..., especially for closers who enter the game with a lead and the bases empty (or even with men on). Every closer will blow some but when they becone a decent percentage of their appearances...

Qeltar · 05-07-2018, 12:59 PM

The other reason I don't begrudge a good closer his saves is that being a closer is hard. Probably the single hardest job, overall, in baseball.

Amusingly, it took playing one in The Show's "RPG lite" mode to make me realize how hard it is:

1. Virtually every time you come into the game it is a pressure-cooker situation, or close to it.
2. Everyone's eyes are constantly on you.
3. Everyone expects you to be perfect all the time.
4. There's only one closer job on teams that use the traditional model and EVERY reliever in the organization is after it.

You don't get to have "bad innings" like a starter that you can recover from if you settle down. There's no 5-man rotation where you only have to be the 5th best to still hold the role down. As a hitter if you succeed 35% of the time you're an all-star, even if you have the odd slump where you suck for 5 or even more games in a row. Can't do that as a closer.

There's a reason why there's only a handful of truly elite, year-in year-out closers. Some peak at closer-level ability for a while, but you've only got a few "machines" like Kimbrel, Jansen, Chapman. And heck, look at Chapman last year. They were ready to run him out of town... and he only ended up with 4 blown saves the entire year.

There's no job in baseball comparable to being a surgeon, but if you had to pick one, this would be it.

BBGiovanni · 05-07-2018, 01:21 PM

I disagree that they are "always" pressure-cooker situations. Plenty of times they have a 2 or more run lead and enter with the bases empty. They often face the bottom of the lineup and whatever reserves happen to be left on the bench. Any non-rotten pitcher should be able to finish that game, and statistically most can.I've watched Strickland and Brian Wilson have plenty of bad innings and get a save. That's why the Rolaids award uses a modified stat.

It was a good idea to credit the Stu Millers and Hoyt Wilhelms that would pitch multiple innings but not get credit for a win, but modern usage "saving" the best pitcher for the 9th inning (or worse, through extra innings when in a tie game on the road) is silly, driven by manager small-mindedness and salary impact (as you imply with all the others in the pen wanting the job).

Qeltar · 05-07-2018, 01:42 PM

I didn't SAY they "always" were. But they are most of the time.

I just looked a Kimbrel's game logs for 2018 as an example. He's had 15 appearances. Of those:

11 were 1-run games. Over 2/3.
2 were 2-run games.
1 was a 3-run game.
Only 1 was lopsided.

So...

If you think closers don't have the highest-pressure job in baseball, who does?

"Any non-rotten pitcher should be able to finish that game..."

And yet the number of pitchers who have been able to hold down closer jobs for 5 straight years (while pitching with dominance) is very small. I guess it's not quite that easy after all.

mitchkenn · 05-07-2018, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBGiovanni

The save is such a silly non-stat, I can't wait until it goes away. Today (IRL) Hunter Strickland came in for the 9th inning with a 3 run lead and gave up a walk, a single, a double, threw I forget how many pitches, had 2-3 mound visits, and lucked into a 1 pitch popout to get out of the inning after giving up 2 runs. With a save!

seems the past year or so, the Giants will take a save anyway they can get one ... a fan from 1961 and they've really stunk it up after that glorious 3 WS run ... but i agree, that wasn't a save, it was mercy.

Qeltar · 05-07-2018, 01:53 PM

Strickland has 8 saves this year.

BBGiovanni mentioned his 1 cheap save.

The other 7 have all been with 1 or 2 run leads, and he's given up a total of 3 hits, 1 walk and 0 earned runs in those 7 innings (against 10 strikeouts).

Of course he has 2 blown saves too, but those didn't count as saves, obviously.

The fact that he picked the one save where he pitched poorly to focus on does a nice job of making my point about how everyone expects closers to be perfect. 7 out of 8 shutout innings is pretty good in my books.

Oh, and this guy is not exactly an established closer.

Matt Arnold · 05-07-2018, 03:14 PM

Personally, I kind of like shutdowns/meltdowns (https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/shutdowns-meltdowns/) more than saves/bs, just because that should better represent what's happening. So if Kimbrel comes in with a 3 run lead in the 9th, that's not credited, because any reliever with an ERA under 18 should be able to "save" that situation. But on the flipside, if it's a 1 run game in the 7th, and you come in with bases loaded nobody out and only give up 1 run, well, you may not get credit in that case, but you don't get penalized for being stuck in a horrible situation.

Now, granted, I'm not thrilled with the essentially arbitrary nature of how the values were picked, but at least it is a slightly different way to assign credit.

Other people keep suggesting other stats that might make more sense. Stuff like "appearances without allowing a run" which is really what you're aiming for most of the time. And always brings those weird thought experiments out - like, if you had a reliever that was guaranteed to give up 1 and only 1 run every inning he pitched, how valuable is he? In theory, that's an ERA of 9, but if you have a 2 run lead in the 9th, he saves every one of those occurances.

05-05-2018, 06:56 PM	#1
krownroyal83 All Star Reserve Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 968	RP comes in with 9 run lead, but gets credited with save Am I wrong or is this not a save? My RP comes in in the 7th and our team has a 10-1 lead. He finishes the game and the final score is 20-1. It shows him getting the save. Don't we have to be up 3 runs or less for him to get a save? We were up but 9 runs. Attached Images

05-07-2018, 01:36 AM	#5
BBGiovanni All Star Starter Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Republic of California Posts: 1,910	The save is such a silly non-stat, I can't wait until it goes away. Today (IRL) Hunter Strickland came in for the 9th inning with a 3 run lead and gave up a walk, a single, a double, threw I forget how many pitches, had 2-3 mound visits, and lucked into a 1 pitch popout to get out of the inning after giving up 2 runs. With a save! __________________ Let's Go (San Jose) Giants, Let's Go Mets! Current Project: WBAT/AABBA: Organized Base Ball And the "New Normal" World Baseball Aid Tournament 2023 trophy round underway!

05-07-2018, 01:21 PM	#11
BBGiovanni All Star Starter Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Republic of California Posts: 1,910	I disagree that they are "always" pressure-cooker situations. Plenty of times they have a 2 or more run lead and enter with the bases empty. They often face the bottom of the lineup and whatever reserves happen to be left on the bench. Any non-rotten pitcher should be able to finish that game, and statistically most can.I've watched Strickland and Brian Wilson have plenty of bad innings and get a save. That's why the Rolaids award uses a modified stat. It was a good idea to credit the Stu Millers and Hoyt Wilhelms that would pitch multiple innings but not get credit for a win, but modern usage "saving" the best pitcher for the 9th inning (or worse, through extra innings when in a tie game on the road) is silly, driven by manager small-mindedness and salary impact (as you imply with all the others in the pen wanting the job). __________________ Let's Go (San Jose) Giants, Let's Go Mets! Current Project: WBAT/AABBA: Organized Base Ball And the "New Normal" World Baseball Aid Tournament 2023 trophy round underway!

05-07-2018, 01:42 PM	#12
Qeltar Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 382	I didn't SAY they "always" were. But they are most of the time. I just looked a Kimbrel's game logs for 2018 as an example. He's had 15 appearances. Of those: 11 were 1-run games. Over 2/3. 2 were 2-run games. 1 was a 3-run game. Only 1 was lopsided. So... If you think closers don't have the highest-pressure job in baseball, who does? "Any non-rotten pitcher should be able to finish that game..." And yet the number of pitchers who have been able to hold down closer jobs for 5 straight years (while pitching with dominance) is very small. I guess it's not quite that easy after all. Last edited by Qeltar; 05-07-2018 at 01:45 PM.

05-05-2018, 07:06 PM	#2
Wingedlion14 Minors (Double A) Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 170	A pitcher also can earn a save by finishing the last three innings of the game. Very rare now with modern bullpen use but it still happens occasionally.

05-05-2018, 07:26 PM	#3
philthepat Moderator Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Dover, UK Posts: 279	This is always the most famous one which gets mentioned with the 3 inning save... https://www.baseball-reference.com/b...00708221.shtml

05-05-2018, 07:56 PM	#4
Qeltar Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 382	LOL that's pretty funny. There are the occasional laughers like that but I generally like the rule. It would be hard to pick a magic number above which to say you don't get a save, and I like the idea of "your team had a big lead but you made sure it stayed that way" -- and a bit of a reward for chewing some innings. Another subtlety in the save rule that trips people up is if the closer comes in with 1 or 2 out in the 9th and nobody on base. That's not a save situation. With a 3 run lead and the tying run not on base, at-bat or the on-deck circle, have to pitch a full inning.

05-07-2018, 08:00 AM	#6
Qeltar Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 382	Well, it was created in large part as a response to the W/L stat, which is far stupider, so if they're going to get rid of one, they should get rid of the other first. But baseball is a tradition-heavy game and I don't see any of them disappearing any time soon. Also, like everything else, things even out. I actually had this come up in an ST game yesterday: Pitcher 1 - 0.1 IP, 1 H, 2 BB, 3 ER -- gets a hold Pitcher 2 - 1.1 IP, 1 H, 0 BB, 0 ER -- gets a blown save The 1 hit Pitcher 2 gave up was a bases-clearing double to the first guy he faced. Closers and setup guys get cheap saves/holds, but they also get blown saves when brought into very difficult situations.

05-07-2018, 10:55 AM	#7
Bunktown Ballers All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,604 Infractions: 0/2 (3)	There is so many types of questions like this in baseball. Is baseball the only game where each playing field is different the others....Football, Basketball, College & Pros, Soccer, all uniform playing fields but in baseball what is a 315 foot homerun in Boston is a can-o-corn in any other park. Oakland A's stadium foul territory is humongous compared to any other park. But all these little nuances is what makes BASEBALL the greatest game ever played. Just about in every game you watch there's a good chance you'll say, Hmmm, I've never seen that happen before. And yes saves is a inferior stat to most but not ever pitcher can close out a game. Just my view BB White Sox fan waiting patiently for the rebuild to be here

05-07-2018, 11:04 AM	#8
Qeltar Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 382	Those who hate the save may find this an interesting read.

05-07-2018, 12:59 PM	#10
Qeltar Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 382	The other reason I don't begrudge a good closer his saves is that being a closer is hard. Probably the single hardest job, overall, in baseball. Amusingly, it took playing one in The Show's "RPG lite" mode to make me realize how hard it is: 1. Virtually every time you come into the game it is a pressure-cooker situation, or close to it. 2. Everyone's eyes are constantly on you. 3. Everyone expects you to be perfect all the time. 4. There's only one closer job on teams that use the traditional model and EVERY reliever in the organization is after it. You don't get to have "bad innings" like a starter that you can recover from if you settle down. There's no 5-man rotation where you only have to be the 5th best to still hold the role down. As a hitter if you succeed 35% of the time you're an all-star, even if you have the odd slump where you suck for 5 or even more games in a row. Can't do that as a closer. There's a reason why there's only a handful of truly elite, year-in year-out closers. Some peak at closer-level ability for a while, but you've only got a few "machines" like Kimbrel, Jansen, Chapman. And heck, look at Chapman last year. They were ready to run him out of town... and he only ended up with 4 blown saves the entire year. There's no job in baseball comparable to being a surgeon, but if you had to pick one, this would be it.

05-07-2018, 01:53 PM	#14
Qeltar Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 382	Strickland has 8 saves this year. BBGiovanni mentioned his 1 cheap save. The other 7 have all been with 1 or 2 run leads, and he's given up a total of 3 hits, 1 walk and 0 earned runs in those 7 innings (against 10 strikeouts). Of course he has 2 blown saves too, but those didn't count as saves, obviously. The fact that he picked the one save where he pitched poorly to focus on does a nice job of making my point about how everyone expects closers to be perfect. 7 out of 8 shutout innings is pretty good in my books. Oh, and this guy is not exactly an established closer.

05-07-2018, 03:14 PM	#15
Matt Arnold OOTP Developer Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Here and there Posts: 16,057	Personally, I kind of like shutdowns/meltdowns (https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/shutdowns-meltdowns/) more than saves/bs, just because that should better represent what's happening. So if Kimbrel comes in with a 3 run lead in the 9th, that's not credited, because any reliever with an ERA under 18 should be able to "save" that situation. But on the flipside, if it's a 1 run game in the 7th, and you come in with bases loaded nobody out and only give up 1 run, well, you may not get credit in that case, but you don't get penalized for being stuck in a horrible situation. Now, granted, I'm not thrilled with the essentially arbitrary nature of how the values were picked, but at least it is a slightly different way to assign credit. Other people keep suggesting other stats that might make more sense. Stuff like "appearances without allowing a run" which is really what you're aiming for most of the time. And always brings those weird thought experiments out - like, if you had a reliever that was guaranteed to give up 1 and only 1 run every inning he pitched, how valuable is he? In theory, that's an ERA of 9, but if you have a 2 run lead in the 9th, he saves every one of those occurances.