Dynamic fictional league evo?

HonusWagner · 05-02-2017, 08:39 PM

Is the dynamic league evolution option for fictional leagues?

Just wondering, since I have teams that post seasonal losses every year and play in markets described as tiny and pathetic. I have dynamic team relocation clicked but these teams just hang on. Am wondering what it takes for relocation to occur.

NoOne · 05-03-2017, 12:46 AM

it's probably made to be a bit rare, so that there's some consistency to your league in any 1 decade, for example.

if you want to test it, make a backup, restore it as some throwaway league and sim it out over night with whichever League evo you want to test out... should see at least some examples of each with that much sim time (quit job in game, turn off some asthetic-only stuff like asg, awards, pictures, reduce level of statistical detail etc... speed up sim / reduce space -- more info for you by the time you get back to the PC / wake up / whatever. just leave anything integral to the modeling left as you will use it - aging, ai eval, strategies, injuries, etc etc obviously if it's 'evolution' changed that's different)

----

I am fairly certain teh game moves toward a "type" of distribution. so, don't expect a "2" to more to a "12" market or something... or if it does, maybe some other markets will lose a tick or two. maybe evolution simply doesn't care like the normal movemnt typically works... never used league evolution. i do hand-tailor financial environements for every league i make - no exagerration.

when i've set too many teams as "5" to start, i see alot more movement initially with market sizes. so, i would wager when moves occur, the overall average market will either remain the same or move slowly back toward that typical average market size. total guess, though.

test it: let a league doa default startification and watch movement, then one with all 5's... maybe the middle jsut has more liekly hood ove movement.. could be many reasons for what i saw, plus being fooled completely.

HonusWagner · 05-03-2017, 10:11 AM

I have a team that has played 40 seasons and not once have they finished in the black (ootp green). In a league where extreme markets make ~3m / season, a good season for this team is when they lose less than $1m.

Yet the owner remains happy.

Plus it is located in Havana, so I expected the market to be crazy for baseball (as in RL). But the market is perpetually tiny and miserable.

Thanks for suggestions.

HonusWagner · 05-03-2017, 10:40 AM

Follow up to Havana having lousy market issue: I saved original league build as template and loaded that to run the tests.

went into havana settings screen and noticed i had loaded default league nationality and not literal location (havana, cuba). this is likely why the market settings were so low.

changed nationality and city location to havana (which I must have done at some time with my actual league) and the market settings did not update. so my havana location is still using default, random market settings chosen by the game engine.

in fact, when I add a new team in the game settings, it automatically grabs a random location based on league nationality. and that sets the market size and characteristics. updating the location in the league settings does not change the market characteristics. those must still be changed manually or they will not reflect the new location.

HonusWagner · 05-03-2017, 10:57 AM

Another issue with the experiment league:

the 2 teams I changed the locations of are no longer serviceable by the AI. the option in the team settings page to prevent ai from making changes is unchecked. yet i cannot get the ai to fill out lineups even though the players are on the roster. this is similar to problem i had with my actual leagues.

HonusWagner · 05-03-2017, 11:08 AM

So I discovered that when a team's nationality does not match the league's nationality the ai no longer will work for that team.

meaning - that the ai will fill roster with fictional players but will not manage players into lineups when asked

HonusWagner · 05-03-2017, 11:14 AM

ahhh... so this has to do with team and league nationalities and foreign player limits..........

HonusWagner · 05-03-2017, 11:15 AM

i wonder if this is at the root of my problems with minors running out of players.. though i seem to recall checking nationalities...

HonusWagner · 05-03-2017, 11:21 AM

thing is, when checking league settings for minors systems, i have no limits on anything, including foreign players....

NoOne · 05-03-2017, 01:33 PM

set "no region" for your MLB, i thought it was default for fictional? double check minors on that same screen, but i doubt they have that same drop-down box for region... since affiliated.

that may fix any potential problems, if you did find that to be the cause. one drawback, you may want to screenshot the Players settings screen for nationalities and such... i think that will be automatically adjusted when you change the region. take note, and re-set it after changing to "no region."

market sizes are quite random in nature when the game is created... i won't say it doesn't consider population, but it's not the sole factor, either.

i've seen very low markets given to an eastern seaborad teams (before i edit them all)... population density is quite insane in that area, compared to say missouri or michigan or even larger difference compared to the dakotas/montana and thereabouts, lol.

HonusWagner · 05-03-2017, 04:34 PM

it is set to no region, which is the default for fictional. But the nationality is still set to Mexico because it is a Mexican league. Most of the teams are in Mexico. The problem was with the foreigner limitations - if quota was set to league nationality it would load Mexicans, if set to team nationality it would load Cubans. Once I removed foreigner limitations the ai loaded the lineups.

HonusWagner · 05-03-2017, 05:43 PM

The numbers for the market size settings are a bit odd to work with. Anything over 8 creates an astronomical market, yet the settings go to 20.

HonusWagner · 05-03-2017, 08:09 PM

Am using this somehow as some sort of guide for market settings

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/arti..._markets.shtml

NoOne · 05-04-2017, 03:41 PM

before you pick market sizes, and if you are willing to ignore the label associated with any particular size:

consider adjusting the contract baseline... if you increase it, the difference between 2-3-4 gets larger... at default it's basically the same market size relative to income... 5-10m between 2-4? thereabouts.

you may need to do that in order to match the various real world revenues. also, consider that any "older" real world contract is undervalued compared to what they would get if re-negotiated today. yankees won't be so low on totem pole for long. (heh that may have already changed this year?)

the only thing about using this to manilputate is that if i am right about a 'pull' toward a fairly normal distribution and ~5 average, then it will shift on you slowly over time...may take maintenance every ~20years or so if it's true)

maybe you want smaller... not assuming. but, you can directly influence how different the market sizes are with just 1 tick up or down by changing the baseline value.

not that it matters, but astronomical should start at 10:

0 non-existent
1 tiny
2 very small
3 small
4 below average
5 average
6 above average
7 big
8 very big
9 huge

if you do see different, screenshot and post it in bugs, probably a good idea

HonusWagner · 05-04-2017, 06:03 PM

Will take a look at the contract values. Thing is I am working with US- and Mexico-based pro leagues. I want them to eventually compete in a type of world series. But the Mex markets are much smaller. Plus, am expanding Mex into Cuba, which has even smaller markets. So far, I have made each league block foreigners. But that will likely change as things evolve. I can see my star Mex-DR-Cuba players mass migrating to US league and that will end the Mex league.

I thought I could get away with small markets because baseball is very popular in Mex-Cuba locations.

Still have a ways to go with this.

HonusWagner · 05-04-2017, 06:26 PM

For salaries, am currently using $25k as minimum, $95k as average, $350k as superstar baselines. The largest contract of either league is currently ~$500k. So from the sounds of what you're suggesting, the differences between 2, 3, 4 etc won't be that big.

HonusWagner · 05-05-2017, 10:12 AM

"Again, there are various options – the one I see cited most often is using Census definitions of each metropolitan area – but my problem is with the premise. Why are teams geographically limited at all? It’s not the 1940s, when live television broadcasts didn’t exist, or the 1960s, when national television broadcasts didn’t exist, or even the 1980s, when the internet didn’t exist. With the advent of live streaming, the geographic limitations on markets have fallen away entirely, and fanbases have spread further as a result. In the past, if you moved, you had basically no choice but to adopt the local team; now, you can be a fan of whatever team you want. Indeed, if you aren’t a cable subscriber, it’s actually easier to be a fan of a team if you don’t live nearby, since then you aren’t blacked out from watching them over the internet. Every team can compete for the fandom of every person around the world. Where that team plays is less relevant than it’s every been."

The above quote is from this article:

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/201...ny-many-others

I agree with the basic premise made. So I think for sake of discussion the revenue for my league needs to come more from media and merchandizing. Am still in the middle of running my experimental game, but it would be nice if OOTP allowed me to marginalize market size as a factor. For example, allow me to set percentage of impact from various revenue inputs. Worst would be that market size dictates merchandizing and media revenues, as that would not reflect modern realities, which the above article talks about.

Although I think that article may minimize market size and metro census status a bit to make its point. But am more interested in how OOTP handles its revenue inputs per team.

NoOne · 05-06-2017, 02:43 PM

it'll probably be very difficult to have 2 major leagues in vastly different economic environments.

unless you make them exlcusive of each other -- no interchancing of players etc... if they are veritable "islands" in the game, it's no problem.

i think you'd have to do a tournament a the end of the regular seasons??? not sure if you can have playoffs between Leagues.

if you want more fluidity between them, you'll have to rationalize an equal footing, financially, for it to work well in that way (fluidity of movement, not a mass migration of better players to the money).

05-02-2017, 08:39 PM	#1
HonusWagner All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 521	Dynamic fictional league evo? Is the dynamic league evolution option for fictional leagues? Just wondering, since I have teams that post seasonal losses every year and play in markets described as tiny and pathetic. I have dynamic team relocation clicked but these teams just hang on. Am wondering what it takes for relocation to occur.

05-03-2017, 12:46 AM	#2
NoOne Banned Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,273 Infractions: 0/1 (3)	it's probably made to be a bit rare, so that there's some consistency to your league in any 1 decade, for example. if you want to test it, make a backup, restore it as some throwaway league and sim it out over night with whichever League evo you want to test out... should see at least some examples of each with that much sim time (quit job in game, turn off some asthetic-only stuff like asg, awards, pictures, reduce level of statistical detail etc... speed up sim / reduce space -- more info for you by the time you get back to the PC / wake up / whatever. just leave anything integral to the modeling left as you will use it - aging, ai eval, strategies, injuries, etc etc obviously if it's 'evolution' changed that's different) ---- I am fairly certain teh game moves toward a "type" of distribution. so, don't expect a "2" to more to a "12" market or something... or if it does, maybe some other markets will lose a tick or two. maybe evolution simply doesn't care like the normal movemnt typically works... never used league evolution. i do hand-tailor financial environements for every league i make - no exagerration. when i've set too many teams as "5" to start, i see alot more movement initially with market sizes. so, i would wager when moves occur, the overall average market will either remain the same or move slowly back toward that typical average market size. total guess, though. test it: let a league doa default startification and watch movement, then one with all 5's... maybe the middle jsut has more liekly hood ove movement.. could be many reasons for what i saw, plus being fooled completely. Last edited by NoOne; 05-03-2017 at 12:52 AM.

05-04-2017, 03:41 PM	#14
NoOne Banned Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,273 Infractions: 0/1 (3)	before you pick market sizes, and if you are willing to ignore the label associated with any particular size: consider adjusting the contract baseline... if you increase it, the difference between 2-3-4 gets larger... at default it's basically the same market size relative to income... 5-10m between 2-4? thereabouts. you may need to do that in order to match the various real world revenues. also, consider that any "older" real world contract is undervalued compared to what they would get if re-negotiated today. yankees won't be so low on totem pole for long. (heh that may have already changed this year?) the only thing about using this to manilputate is that if i am right about a 'pull' toward a fairly normal distribution and ~5 average, then it will shift on you slowly over time...may take maintenance every ~20years or so if it's true) maybe you want smaller... not assuming. but, you can directly influence how different the market sizes are with just 1 tick up or down by changing the baseline value. not that it matters, but astronomical should start at 10: 0 non-existent 1 tiny 2 very small 3 small 4 below average 5 average 6 above average 7 big 8 very big 9 huge if you do see different, screenshot and post it in bugs, probably a good idea Last edited by NoOne; 05-04-2017 at 03:45 PM.

05-03-2017, 10:11 AM	#3
HonusWagner All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 521	I have a team that has played 40 seasons and not once have they finished in the black (ootp green). In a league where extreme markets make ~3m / season, a good season for this team is when they lose less than $1m. Yet the owner remains happy. Plus it is located in Havana, so I expected the market to be crazy for baseball (as in RL). But the market is perpetually tiny and miserable. Thanks for suggestions.

05-03-2017, 10:40 AM	#4
HonusWagner All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 521	Follow up to Havana having lousy market issue: I saved original league build as template and loaded that to run the tests. went into havana settings screen and noticed i had loaded default league nationality and not literal location (havana, cuba). this is likely why the market settings were so low. changed nationality and city location to havana (which I must have done at some time with my actual league) and the market settings did not update. so my havana location is still using default, random market settings chosen by the game engine. in fact, when I add a new team in the game settings, it automatically grabs a random location based on league nationality. and that sets the market size and characteristics. updating the location in the league settings does not change the market characteristics. those must still be changed manually or they will not reflect the new location.

05-03-2017, 10:57 AM	#5
HonusWagner All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 521	Another issue with the experiment league: the 2 teams I changed the locations of are no longer serviceable by the AI. the option in the team settings page to prevent ai from making changes is unchecked. yet i cannot get the ai to fill out lineups even though the players are on the roster. this is similar to problem i had with my actual leagues.

05-03-2017, 11:08 AM	#6
HonusWagner All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 521	So I discovered that when a team's nationality does not match the league's nationality the ai no longer will work for that team. meaning - that the ai will fill roster with fictional players but will not manage players into lineups when asked

05-03-2017, 11:14 AM	#7
HonusWagner All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 521	ahhh... so this has to do with team and league nationalities and foreign player limits..........

05-03-2017, 11:15 AM	#8
HonusWagner All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 521	i wonder if this is at the root of my problems with minors running out of players.. though i seem to recall checking nationalities...

05-03-2017, 11:21 AM	#9
HonusWagner All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 521	thing is, when checking league settings for minors systems, i have no limits on anything, including foreign players....

05-03-2017, 01:33 PM	#10
NoOne Banned Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,273 Infractions: 0/1 (3)	set "no region" for your MLB, i thought it was default for fictional? double check minors on that same screen, but i doubt they have that same drop-down box for region... since affiliated. that may fix any potential problems, if you did find that to be the cause. one drawback, you may want to screenshot the Players settings screen for nationalities and such... i think that will be automatically adjusted when you change the region. take note, and re-set it after changing to "no region." market sizes are quite random in nature when the game is created... i won't say it doesn't consider population, but it's not the sole factor, either. i've seen very low markets given to an eastern seaborad teams (before i edit them all)... population density is quite insane in that area, compared to say missouri or michigan or even larger difference compared to the dakotas/montana and thereabouts, lol.

05-03-2017, 04:34 PM	#11
HonusWagner All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 521	it is set to no region, which is the default for fictional. But the nationality is still set to Mexico because it is a Mexican league. Most of the teams are in Mexico. The problem was with the foreigner limitations - if quota was set to league nationality it would load Mexicans, if set to team nationality it would load Cubans. Once I removed foreigner limitations the ai loaded the lineups.

05-03-2017, 05:43 PM	#12
HonusWagner All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 521	The numbers for the market size settings are a bit odd to work with. Anything over 8 creates an astronomical market, yet the settings go to 20.

05-03-2017, 08:09 PM	#13
HonusWagner All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 521	Am using this somehow as some sort of guide for market settings http://www.baseball-almanac.com/arti..._markets.shtml

05-04-2017, 06:03 PM	#15
HonusWagner All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 521	Will take a look at the contract values. Thing is I am working with US- and Mexico-based pro leagues. I want them to eventually compete in a type of world series. But the Mex markets are much smaller. Plus, am expanding Mex into Cuba, which has even smaller markets. So far, I have made each league block foreigners. But that will likely change as things evolve. I can see my star Mex-DR-Cuba players mass migrating to US league and that will end the Mex league. I thought I could get away with small markets because baseball is very popular in Mex-Cuba locations. Still have a ways to go with this.

05-04-2017, 06:26 PM	#16
HonusWagner All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 521	For salaries, am currently using $25k as minimum, $95k as average, $350k as superstar baselines. The largest contract of either league is currently ~$500k. So from the sounds of what you're suggesting, the differences between 2, 3, 4 etc won't be that big.

05-05-2017, 10:12 AM	#17
HonusWagner All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 521	"Again, there are various options – the one I see cited most often is using Census definitions of each metropolitan area – but my problem is with the premise. Why are teams geographically limited at all? It’s not the 1940s, when live television broadcasts didn’t exist, or the 1960s, when national television broadcasts didn’t exist, or even the 1980s, when the internet didn’t exist. With the advent of live streaming, the geographic limitations on markets have fallen away entirely, and fanbases have spread further as a result. In the past, if you moved, you had basically no choice but to adopt the local team; now, you can be a fan of whatever team you want. Indeed, if you aren’t a cable subscriber, it’s actually easier to be a fan of a team if you don’t live nearby, since then you aren’t blacked out from watching them over the internet. Every team can compete for the fandom of every person around the world. Where that team plays is less relevant than it’s every been." The above quote is from this article: http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/201...ny-many-others I agree with the basic premise made. So I think for sake of discussion the revenue for my league needs to come more from media and merchandizing. Am still in the middle of running my experimental game, but it would be nice if OOTP allowed me to marginalize market size as a factor. For example, allow me to set percentage of impact from various revenue inputs. Worst would be that market size dictates merchandizing and media revenues, as that would not reflect modern realities, which the above article talks about. Although I think that article may minimize market size and metro census status a bit to make its point. But am more interested in how OOTP handles its revenue inputs per team.

05-06-2017, 02:43 PM	#18
NoOne Banned Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,273 Infractions: 0/1 (3)	it'll probably be very difficult to have 2 major leagues in vastly different economic environments. unless you make them exlcusive of each other -- no interchancing of players etc... if they are veritable "islands" in the game, it's no problem. i think you'd have to do a tournament a the end of the regular seasons??? not sure if you can have playoffs between Leagues. if you want more fluidity between them, you'll have to rationalize an equal footing, financially, for it to work well in that way (fluidity of movement, not a mass migration of better players to the money).