Frank Childs ReThink

[Cap]

I've been researching and updating the ring record of Chicago's Frank Childs the "heavyweight" of the 1890s & early 20th century and I've been reconsidering his position amongst pugilists of that era as it would affect his ratings in Title Bout.

Born in Texas, Childs at some point moved to Los Angeles and began boxing professionally. After some success there and one bad call that soured him on the local fight scene, he eventually moved to Chicago and soon became a popular attraction, despite a couple of rough outings, for the clubs and promoters. Childs beat Bob Armstrong and Klondike Haynes and drew with Charley Strong before going on the road and losing to highly-rated George Byers. [Childs fought almost 15 rounds with one good eye] That loss marked a turning point for Childs as he went on a long unbeaten streak beating good/decent black fighters and drawing with white fighters of similar or less stature into 1902.

At this time he was fighting at between 165 and 170 pounds and relied on quickness and toughness and some power to take on the bigger guys in the heavyweight division (which at the time was anyone over 154-158.). His best win at this time was likely a 17th round stoppage of the same George Byers who had whipped him before.

Late in February of 1902 he ran into rangy Denver Ed Martin and was clearly outpointed over six rounds, although he was starting to get stronger as the fight progressed. Childs was considered a slow starter who really needed a longer distance to reach his peak. The fight brought him national attention and his quality of opposition increased.

He beat Joe Walcott with relative ease, but ran into a tartar with a young Jack Johnson the Galveston Giant and was stopped. In his second meeting with veteran Joe Choynski, who had stopped him in 3 rounds nine years previously, he managed to last six rounds but lost the decision. From that point the record shows no fights in 1903 and three wins and two losses the following year, the losses to Jack Johnson and Denver Ed Martin.

Frank Childs was a tough guy with some defensive skills and power for his size who made the most of what he had. Unfortunately, when he stepped up in class he didn't fare so well, especially in short bouts.

Anyway, as for TB, I've got Childs in my AU and I've re-evaluated his ratings a couple of times over the years. At his best he should beat guys like George Byers who was really a middleweight, Klondike Haynes, Fred Russell, and Bob Armstrong (big guys with little movement) and lose to guys with good defensive skills and larger guys who could out-box him.

That's my evaluation of him. I leave it up to those craftier than me to actually create a proper TB Rating of him.

Cap

P.S. Right now I'd rate these five guys [in their primes] like this:
1. Denver Ed Martin
2. Hank Griffin
3. Frank Childs
4. Bob Armstrong
5. Klondike Haynes

P.S. These guys are really tricky to rank. Childs may have had the most pure talent but was much smaller than the others. Still he managed to whip Armstrong who was considerably taller not once but three times. In his prime, Martin seemed to find a way to win most times, fighting "tall", making it difficult for shorter fighters to reach his chin.

[IceTea]

Thanks for the analysis. When I regain the ability to post updates, I'll look at him and the other fighters you mentioned.

[Cap]

I should add that in the early glove era, as in the previous period, many early fights on a "name fighter's" record were really just local toughs hunted up by the promoter. They were outsiders with a made-up reputation or local boys known to be hard-men. This is where professionals learned their craft and practised what they learned before going up against similar professionals or veterans on the down-grade. Pros who built up a dangerous reputation in their hometowns were often exposed when matched with guys with real skills and talent.

Cap

[bob_bask]

Originally Posted by Cap

P.S. Right now I'd rate these five guys like this:
1. Denver Ed Martin
2. Bob Armstrong
3. Hank Griffin
4. Frank Childs
5. Klondike Haynes

Checking these guys current ratings and found I don't have Klondike Haynes, would you be able to share?

Also be interested in your versions of the guys as you said you've adjusted over time.

Thanks

[bear]

Originally Posted by bob_bask

Checking these guys current ratings and found I don't have Klondike Haynes, would you be able to share?

Also be interested in your versions of the guys as you said you've adjusted over time.

Thanks

Take your pick. One is a 3 and the other a 4.

[Cap]

Originally Posted by bob_bask

Checking these guys current ratings and found I don't have Klondike Haynes, would you be able to share?

Also be interested in your versions of the guys as you said you've adjusted over time.

Thanks

Generally I don't bother sharing files as I don't have the same grasp of the mechanics of ratings that some of you have. As for Klondike Haynes, after digging through the scant available records, I am less impressed with this guy than I was previously. Although he beat down a young Jack Johnson after taking his share of punishment, in a return match the next year Johnson fought him to a standstill, and just a few months later Jack stopped him in 14 rounds. Starting in 1898 Haynes fought Frank Childs five times and got put away four times and nearly made it a fifth time, taking a one-sided beating. Probably his best win was a 6rd decision over "Slaughterhouse" Henry Baker, a middleweight, who, despite his nickname, was known more as a boxer than a slugger. Haynes stood close to 6' tall and weighed anywhere from 170 to 190. He was known for headlong rushes and wild punching and being willing to take punishment to land some. Denver Ed Martin beat him up for 6 rounds but couldn't put him away, but unlike Childs, Martin only fought Haynes once.

Cap

[IceTea]

Since the issues I've been having are fixed, I'm looking at the above-mentioned fighters.

[Cap]

I might need to do a rethink of Denver Ed Martin now. For whatever reason, he didn't always seem properly prepared for a fight. Although he was well-managed by Billy Madden he seemed like a guy with most of the physical tools but not always able to apply them in the ring. He often left himself open and was prone to getting tagged and put down. Poor balance? He was knocked out in his first recorded fight by Bob Armstrong, drew with him in what may have been a fix before fighting him again, this time in England. They went 15 rounds and Martin got a well-deserved decision. In their fourth match-up both men narrowly missed a knockout, and Martin finished stronger despite being knocked down five times and thrown down once in the 4th round.
Six months later, in June of 1903, Armstrong knocked out Martin in 3 rounds at Boston. This was four months after a close loss by Martin to Jack Johnson in which he once again escaped being knocked out. Martin ceased to be a real force in the heavyweight division after these two losses, although he did manage decisions over Frank Childs [6 rds] and Sam McVea [10 rds].

Cap