1894 Season

lars0217 · 12-21-2016, 06:15 PM

Using versions 14 and 16, I was unable to load the correct rosters for the 1894 season historical replay, this is the first time using historical replays that the rosters were incorrect. Thanks for any help.

thehef · 12-22-2016, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lars0217

Using versions 14 and 16, I was unable to load the correct rosters for the 1894 season historical replay, this is the first time using historical replays that the rosters were incorrect. Thanks for any help.

I believe this is correct. I haven't done a pre-1901 historical reply in several years, but I do know that when I did (I think it was OOTP version 11 or 12), you could not do historical with actual rosters & players importing to actual teams if it was before 1901. So in my league, which started in 1890, players imported randomly to major league teams, and I just let that happen until the 1901 season, at which point I could have the game begin using real historical transactions. So what I did was in the offseason between 1900 and 1901, I moved most of the players to their correct teams (didn't worry too much about the scrubs who had few at-bats), and from then on it was fine.

I'm pretty sure that - no historical txns prior to 1901 - hasn't changed, but I'm not positive. Hopefully others can confirm. If not, I'll run a test... If that's the case, then your only alternative would be to manage rosters manually.

Good luck!

Spritze · 12-22-2016, 04:54 PM

OOTP has never in any version supported real historical teams and leagues pre 1901.
The players are there but the team/league structure is not.

thehef · 12-22-2016, 10:53 PM

From 1890-1900 you'll get a National League where OOTP keeps the number of teams at 8 each season. In reality, the NL in that decade was only 8 teams in 1890-91, and in 1900. For the years in-between - which also equals the years in-between the existence of the (major league) American Association (which folded after 1891) and the new American League (in 1900) - the NL was 12 teams. So to keep things nice-and-tidy OOTP creates a stable, 8-team AL to run alongside the NL, with the AL made up of the overflow NL teams, the AA teams that discontinued or went elsewhere - basically whatever it took to for a smooth transition from the 1890/1891 two-leagues/eight-teams-each, real-life NL & AA (NL & AL in OOTP) to the 1901 & beyond two-leagues/eight-teams-each NL & AL.

So given that, what I mentioned previously/above about the "only alternative would be to manage rosters manually," is not actually correct in that while you can absolutely manage rosters manually, you cannot do so with the intent of the rosters being historically accurate. This is because, for example, in 1894 OOTP includes the Boston Americans, Chicago White Sox, Detroit Tigers, and Philadelphia Athletics in its fictional American League; none of these teams existed in real life 1894 (well, the Tigers existed, but in the Western League).

Spritze · 12-23-2016, 12:16 AM

I used to include the real teams and leagues pre-1901 n the Spritze database. As long as 2 leagues existed things worked fine even though one of the leagues was often bereft of teams. The big challenge was that a draft was required by OOTP so the players still did not appear on the proper team. Even included a pre-1901 transaction file which the game ignored. I totally hate the current 19th century monstrosity. There is no reason any longer to have those weird requirements. If you add 30 years to everything so that 1871 happens in 1901 and 1901 = 1931 it all works just fine and a draft is not required.

thehef · 12-23-2016, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

I used to include the real teams and leagues pre-1901 n the Spritze database. As long as 2 leagues existed things worked fine even though one of the leagues was often bereft of teams. The big challenge was that a draft was required by OOTP so the players still did not appear on the proper team. Even included a pre-1901 transaction file which the game ignored. I totally hate the current 19th century monstrosity. There is no reason any longer to have those weird requirements.

We are well beyond the time when the programming required for 19th-century historical majors is too complex for OOTP. At this point, all that is needed is for OOTP to know the year-to-year league(s) structures, the players & stats to be available, and semi-accurate historical transactions available to make sure the players go where they're supposed to go. Perhaps the only challenge would be for the game to accurately track league & team histories, an area where OOTP struggles as it relates to historical minors - and historical minors shares with 19th century majors the features of franchise moves, mergers, disbandings, mystery dispositions, and league startups and foldings. So maybe solving for one could lead to major improvements in the other.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

If you add 30 years to everything so that 1871 happens in 1901 and 1901 = 1931 it all works just fine and a draft is not required.

Are you saying that if you monkey with all of the source files - teams, transactions (which would only be doable if you can modify and odb, which not many can do), various era_* files, and of course the batting, pitching, fielding csv's that have all the players stats (and were included prior to OOTP17) - to where every line that is originally 1871 is then 1901, etc., that it works?

Spritze · 12-23-2016, 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thehef

Are you saying that if you monkey with all of the source files - teams, transactions (which would only be doable if you can modify and odb, which not many can do), various era_* files, and of course the batting, pitching, fielding csv's that have all the players stats (and were included prior to OOTP17) - to where every line that is originally 1871 is then 1901, etc., that it works?

Yup

and I suspect that if you made them all minor leagues they would work as well.

PS - you cannot modify/edit odb files but you could make new ones if you had access to the odb maker and a few years of experience. ODB files are at root a proprietary zip file used because the unzipped versions (csv) are too big to be read fully. There are as many as 35 files that interlock to create each odb file. Almost all of those files are proprietary to OOTP and involve intellectual properties. That is why changing a couple of csv files doesn't get you very far. You will always wind up at a "Thar' she blows!" moment.

thehef · 12-23-2016, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

Yup

Very cool. Then I reiterate: We are well beyond the time when the programming required for 19th-century historical majors is too complex for OOTP.

BaseballMan · 12-23-2016, 07:19 PM

I dont think changing 1871 to 1901 would solve the problem.
I have no problem getting the correct historical teams or even the rookies to import automatically to the teams.

Problem is that rosters can be thin during the 19th century. You have to look at the date you are moving a player as a team may be left with not enough players. If you use as played schedules it becomes even more critical.

I do agree the 19th century play can be improved but i dont see ootp doing much about it. I think its really up to us. Im pretty sure that if i can run a league with id say fairly accurate rosters from 1871-1890 then ootp could do it.

lars0217 · 01-01-2017, 01:43 PM

That is interesting because using 2 different versions(14 and 16) the rosters were incorrect.

BaseballMan · 01-01-2017, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lars0217

That is interesting because using 2 different versions(14 and 16) the rosters were incorrect.

Sorry i forgot to mention that you do have to edit the database.
You do have to perform transactions manually.
I have simmed from 1871-1896. As soon as i get to 1900 i will share what i have and i will try to write an updated guide.
Whether the game could ever do 19th century automatically i dont know.
It seems it could be done as i basically use a spreadsheet for my transactions.

thehef · 01-02-2017, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

Sorry i forgot to mention that you do have to edit the database.

To what database are you referring? A csv one? Surely not an odb... Just curious.

BaseballMan · 01-02-2017, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thehef

To what database are you referring? A csv one? Surely not an odb... Just curious.

Yeah the csv files in the stats folder. You have to edit it to get actual historical teams. You would also have to remove the database odb file. Just make a backup of course. If that file is still there the game will have the alternate fictional historical league for 1871-1900.
You would need to change the league abbreviations to AL or NL for batting, pitching, and fielding csvs and then you would need to copy the original teams to the teams csv file from the lahman database team's csv file.
You might also have to have edit some columns there but the main thing is making sure each team has a AL or NL league abbreviation.
It wont see the team if has the NA or AA league abbreviations
Even after all that you still have to make transactions manually.

However if you can wait i will share everything i have once i reached
1901. Its not perfect but it is a little more streamlined and easier that starting from scratch. I will try and write an updated guide. I am currently at 1898 so it shouldnt take much longer.
I

12-21-2016, 06:15 PM	#1
lars0217 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 52	1894 Season Using versions 14 and 16, I was unable to load the correct rosters for the 1894 season historical replay, this is the first time using historical replays that the rosters were incorrect. Thanks for any help.

12-22-2016, 04:54 PM	#3
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	OOTP has never in any version supported real historical teams and leagues pre 1901. The players are there but the team/league structure is not. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

12-23-2016, 12:16 AM	#5
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	I used to include the real teams and leagues pre-1901 n the Spritze database. As long as 2 leagues existed things worked fine even though one of the leagues was often bereft of teams. The big challenge was that a draft was required by OOTP so the players still did not appear on the proper team. Even included a pre-1901 transaction file which the game ignored. I totally hate the current 19th century monstrosity. There is no reason any longer to have those weird requirements. If you add 30 years to everything so that 1871 happens in 1901 and 1901 = 1931 it all works just fine and a draft is not required. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

12-22-2016, 10:53 PM	#4
thehef Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 5,391	From 1890-1900 you'll get a National League where OOTP keeps the number of teams at 8 each season. In reality, the NL in that decade was only 8 teams in 1890-91, and in 1900. For the years in-between - which also equals the years in-between the existence of the (major league) American Association (which folded after 1891) and the new American League (in 1900) - the NL was 12 teams. So to keep things nice-and-tidy OOTP creates a stable, 8-team AL to run alongside the NL, with the AL made up of the overflow NL teams, the AA teams that discontinued or went elsewhere - basically whatever it took to for a smooth transition from the 1890/1891 two-leagues/eight-teams-each, real-life NL & AA (NL & AL in OOTP) to the 1901 & beyond two-leagues/eight-teams-each NL & AL. So given that, what I mentioned previously/above about the "only alternative would be to manage rosters manually," is not actually correct in that while you can absolutely manage rosters manually, you cannot do so with the intent of the rosters being historically accurate. This is because, for example, in 1894 OOTP includes the Boston Americans, Chicago White Sox, Detroit Tigers, and Philadelphia Athletics in its fictional American League; none of these teams existed in real life 1894 (well, the Tigers existed, but in the Western League).

12-23-2016, 07:19 PM	#9
BaseballMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,672	I dont think changing 1871 to 1901 would solve the problem. I have no problem getting the correct historical teams or even the rookies to import automatically to the teams. Problem is that rosters can be thin during the 19th century. You have to look at the date you are moving a player as a team may be left with not enough players. If you use as played schedules it becomes even more critical. I do agree the 19th century play can be improved but i dont see ootp doing much about it. I think its really up to us. Im pretty sure that if i can run a league with id say fairly accurate rosters from 1871-1890 then ootp could do it.

01-01-2017, 01:43 PM	#10
lars0217 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 52	That is interesting because using 2 different versions(14 and 16) the rosters were incorrect.