Using an Ace as closer

camerainmyhand · 08-18-2016, 11:17 PM

On an episode of the Effectively Wild podcast this week, the question was raised as to what would happen if ace pitchers like Kershaw or Fernandez were used as closers instead of as starters.

The conversation was about how good Britton is this year and whether being a great closer is that impressive, considering that if they were really a great pitcher then they would be used as a starter.I am not so interested in the politics of this thought, but the idea of seeing Kershaw come out to seal the deal is a very interesting idea.

I have never gotten in to editing players, so I am not sure that I could do this concept justice, but what would happen if someone cloned the top 5 starting pitchers in the league and converted them to closers (I assume this would involve limiting them to no more than two pitch types and cutting their stamina way down).

So I ask some of the fine people on this forum, who know how to effectively and correctly edit players, to run a few sims with pitchers like Kershaw, Fernandez, Sale, etc. as closers and post the results.

I look forward to what can be done.

Thank you.

reflections · 08-18-2016, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by camerainmyhand

On an episode of the Effectively Wild podcast this week, the question was raised as to what would happen if ace pitchers like Kershaw or Fernandez were used as closers instead of as starters.

The conversation was about how good Britton is this year and whether being a great closer is that impressive, considering that if they were really a great pitcher then they would be used as a starter.I am not so interested in the politics of this thought, but the idea of seeing Kershaw come out to seal the deal is a very interesting idea.

I have never gotten in to editing players, so I am not sure that I could do this concept justice, but what would happen if someone cloned the top 5 starting pitchers in the league and converted them to closers (I assume this would involve limiting them to no more than two pitch types and cutting their stamina way down).

So I ask some of the fine people on this forum, who know how to effectively and correctly edit players, to run a few sims with pitchers like Kershaw, Fernandez, Sale, etc. as closers and post the results.

I look forward to what can be done.

Thank you.

Interesting idea.. In one of my online leagues I have Bob Feller and he came back from a injury and was getting hammered. I put him into a relief spot, and then in the new year had him be my closer. He has been lights out. 16 saves. 1.18 ERA. The only surprise has been his strikeouts have only been around 5 Per/9.

stl jason · 08-19-2016, 09:36 AM

I could see using someone like Kershaw as a closer at the start of his career (sort of like how Wainwright was used as the closer in the 2006 playoffs for the Cardinals); but personally would have a hard time leaving him there long term unless I had such a killer starting staff that getting those 7+ innings out of him every 5 days wasn't really needed.

going the opposite direction... I'm playing a fictional league right now where I traded for a top notch closer a few seasons ago, but his stamina is off the charts so I converted him to a starter instead... leads my team in CG and shutouts now.

ThePretender · 08-19-2016, 02:07 PM

I'd imagine even more effective given they wouldn't have to worry about stamina and could throw top end velocity instead of holding back a bit to maintain it over a full game. Could focus on their top 2 pitches more.

Britton's season is impressive, but at the same time it's not that impressive. Miller/Britton have nearly identical stats - one has allowed 4 less total runs, and is therefore a Cy Young candidate. The other has a higher WAR, more innings pitched, and a still impressive 1.47 ERA.

A Cy vote for Britton is suggesting 4 runs is the difference between fantastic season and Cy Young season. I can't bring myself to agree with that, or that 60 RP innings > 200+ SP innings.

BIG17EASY · 08-19-2016, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePretender

I'd imagine even more effective given they wouldn't have to worry about stamina and could throw top end velocity instead of holding back a bit to maintain it over a full game. Could focus on their top 2 pitches more.

Britton's season is impressive, but at the same time it's not that impressive. Miller/Britton have nearly identical stats - one has allowed 4 less total runs, and is therefore a Cy Young candidate. The other has a higher WAR, more innings pitched, and a still impressive 1.47 ERA.

A Cy vote for Britton is suggesting 4 runs is the difference between fantastic season and Cy Young season. I can't bring myself to agree with that, or that 60 RP innings > 200+ SP innings.

I'm in the Keith Law camp of relievers never winning the Cy Young. 60ish innings from a closer (or 80ish from a setup guy) just isn't nearly enough for me to say they're the best pitcher in the league when the best starters are throwing 200-220.

sc_superstar · 08-19-2016, 05:33 PM

unless no starters have great stats or some guy has insane stats 100+ innings in relief with 150+ K and a sub 1 ERA and WHIP, I just don't see many relievers have a so far above everyone else type of season to deserve it.

Generally starters get the higher profile because they throw 3x the innings, and have to turn over the lineup multiple times. Many great closers/setup guys were high end starter prospects but some slight flaw (usually control) put them in the bullpen, or the team needed them in the pen and they never went back.

Britton is an example of this, he was quite hyped along with Dylan Bundy, Jake Arrieta and Tommy Hunter as the next Atlanta Braves for the 2010's. Britton was mediocre as a starter, and that's how he ended up in the bullpen, he closed some games during a tear down season when they had no closer, and was good, so they found a role he thrives in, but if you make him go beyond the 1-inning 60x a year threshold, he would probably go back to mediocre stats.

MrBojangles · 08-19-2016, 10:53 PM

In OOTP closers normally only have two good pitches, where starters have at least three, and often more.
I'd think that, at least in OOTP, the closer as starter strategy would fail more often than succeed.

Hooray Saturday · 08-19-2016, 11:52 PM

doesn't John Smoltz answer the question?

08-18-2016, 11:17 PM	#1
camerainmyhand Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 41	Using an Ace as closer On an episode of the Effectively Wild podcast this week, the question was raised as to what would happen if ace pitchers like Kershaw or Fernandez were used as closers instead of as starters. The conversation was about how good Britton is this year and whether being a great closer is that impressive, considering that if they were really a great pitcher then they would be used as a starter.I am not so interested in the politics of this thought, but the idea of seeing Kershaw come out to seal the deal is a very interesting idea. I have never gotten in to editing players, so I am not sure that I could do this concept justice, but what would happen if someone cloned the top 5 starting pitchers in the league and converted them to closers (I assume this would involve limiting them to no more than two pitch types and cutting their stamina way down). So I ask some of the fine people on this forum, who know how to effectively and correctly edit players, to run a few sims with pitchers like Kershaw, Fernandez, Sale, etc. as closers and post the results. I look forward to what can be done. Thank you.

08-19-2016, 09:36 AM	#3
stl jason Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 10,112	I could see using someone like Kershaw as a closer at the start of his career (sort of like how Wainwright was used as the closer in the 2006 playoffs for the Cardinals); but personally would have a hard time leaving him there long term unless I had such a killer starting staff that getting those 7+ innings out of him every 5 days wasn't really needed. going the opposite direction... I'm playing a fictional league right now where I traded for a top notch closer a few seasons ago, but his stamina is off the charts so I converted him to a starter instead... leads my team in CG and shutouts now.

08-19-2016, 02:07 PM	#4
ThePretender All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,324	I'd imagine even more effective given they wouldn't have to worry about stamina and could throw top end velocity instead of holding back a bit to maintain it over a full game. Could focus on their top 2 pitches more. Britton's season is impressive, but at the same time it's not that impressive. Miller/Britton have nearly identical stats - one has allowed 4 less total runs, and is therefore a Cy Young candidate. The other has a higher WAR, more innings pitched, and a still impressive 1.47 ERA. A Cy vote for Britton is suggesting 4 runs is the difference between fantastic season and Cy Young season. I can't bring myself to agree with that, or that 60 RP innings > 200+ SP innings.

08-19-2016, 05:33 PM	#6
sc_superstar Major Leagues Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 407	unless no starters have great stats or some guy has insane stats 100+ innings in relief with 150+ K and a sub 1 ERA and WHIP, I just don't see many relievers have a so far above everyone else type of season to deserve it. Generally starters get the higher profile because they throw 3x the innings, and have to turn over the lineup multiple times. Many great closers/setup guys were high end starter prospects but some slight flaw (usually control) put them in the bullpen, or the team needed them in the pen and they never went back. Britton is an example of this, he was quite hyped along with Dylan Bundy, Jake Arrieta and Tommy Hunter as the next Atlanta Braves for the 2010's. Britton was mediocre as a starter, and that's how he ended up in the bullpen, he closed some games during a tear down season when they had no closer, and was good, so they found a role he thrives in, but if you make him go beyond the 1-inning 60x a year threshold, he would probably go back to mediocre stats.

08-19-2016, 10:53 PM	#7
MrBojangles All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: low and inside Posts: 568	In OOTP closers normally only have two good pitches, where starters have at least three, and often more. I'd think that, at least in OOTP, the closer as starter strategy would fail more often than succeed.

08-19-2016, 11:52 PM	#8
Hooray Saturday Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 251	doesn't John Smoltz answer the question?