Are ingame issues being addressed?

[oldtimey]

Are the ingame issues that plague OOTP13 and 14, like bullpen and strategy AI, and play-by-play issues being addressed/corrected or do those of us who desire an immersive game-by-game, day-to-day experience of Major League Baseball just look elsewhere?

[endgame]

Well, you can look elsewhere, but I'm not sure who does it better and if they do, just how they excel. It's a good general inquiry and I know it's important to you and those of us who play out a lot of their games. Maybe we could use this thread to dissect a few of those areas and discuss them so we can either advocate for change in v15 before its release, or at least brainstorm together about what form these improvements might take. May prove productive. FWIW

[oldtimey]

What bugs me the most is that the AI does not need to warm up pitchers in the bullpen. This aspect of the ingame experience has been done well aynd has represented the prevailing trends of Major League Baseball by other sims since Earl Weaver Baseball in the 1980s. To have no warm up strategy and not have this be a part of a game's late inning drama does not truly represent Major League Baseball. My experience stops at OOTP13, so if any of this has been corrected in 14, I apologize for being redundant. The play-by-play doesn't address the starting pitcher's fatigue or the strategy involved in the choices of relievers. When a pitching change is made, all you see is "SUBSTITUTION" and the new pitcher appears. And when the reliever is brought into a save situation, his current save stats for the season is not indicated. Again, if this different in OOTP14, I will shut up. This is the first of a few problems I had with OOTP13 in-game, but it definitely is the issue that bugged me the most.

[Fyrestorm3]

Originally Posted by oldtimey

And when the reliever is brought into a save situation, his current save stats for the season is not indicated.

This was added in OOTP14.

As for the others, I agree with you on all of them, but for the most part, they're only minor annoyances for me. The warm-up rule is a big one, though; we've mentioned that for a few versions now, and it really should be fixed.

[endgame]

Originally Posted by oldtimey

What bugs me the most is that the AI does not need to warm up pitchers in the bullpen. This aspect of the ingame experience has been done well aynd has represented the prevailing trends of Major League Baseball by other sims since Earl Weaver Baseball in the 1980s. To have no warm up strategy and not have this be a part of a game's late inning drama does not truly represent Major League Baseball. My experience stops at OOTP13, so if any of this has been corrected in 14, I apologize for being redundant. The play-by-play doesn't address the starting pitcher's fatigue or the strategy involved in the choices of relievers. When a pitching change is made, all you see is "SUBSTITUTION" and the new pitcher appears. And when the reliever is brought into a save situation, his current save stats for the season is not indicated. Again, if this different in OOTP14, I will shut up. This is the first of a few problems I had with OOTP13 in-game, but it definitely is the issue that bugged me the most.

Hehe...you don't have to shut up about anything. I wouldn't have invited you to talk about it, if I wasn't ready to hear what you had to say.

Warm up strategies for the AI. Agreed. Want this feature badly myself. In fact, it may have been v12 or v13 in which it was originally planned to be incorporated but either proved too problematic or simply took a back seat to other more pressing or popular demands. I don't know, but do know I still advocate its inclusion. I may represent a minority, but like you, the strategies and outright liveliness of the managerial possibilities is one I'd truly enjoy. It's worth resurrecting interest.

Play by play issues can, for the most part, be addressed, unless they're hard-coded descriptions written and entered by Markus, but there may be room for improvements relative to the areas you've mentioned. I happen to know just the guy who can chime in on this, if he hasn't by the time I inquire.

v14 does- and I don't know if does every time -include references to the number of saves and often blown saves as well. As goes references to the fatigue level or indications about why a particular relief choice is made? I would quickly agree we can tweak this to improve the in-game experience and make us feel more involved in the big picture. Knowing why, in order to appropriate the terminology is a different matter. I don't know if we've the means to get the rationale behind certain decisions, but if in a future version we can, then it's a matter of added pbp phrase tokens to display those more readily. Can it improve? Sure. Will it do overnight? Doubt it, but I wouldn't rule out a future patch. In-game is an important part of the game to many of us and we can always help champion the cause if we are able to demonstrate the needs and proffer a reasonable solution.

Back to the AI bullpen movement for a minute. I think the problem there is the sheer number of ramifications and, oh how I love the word, permutations, that are necessary. Let's explore just how that would work.

[RchW]

If it works badly and makes the in-game experience worse, what then? Maybe my imagination is too good but I take the view that the AI is warming up the right relievers all the time and that I have to be at my best. We can out think the AI anyway so making it warm up pitchers would just be another advantage.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by oldtimey

Are the ingame issues that plague OOTP13 and 14, like bullpen and strategy AI, and play-by-play issues being addressed/corrected or do those of us who desire an immersive game-by-game, day-to-day experience of Major League Baseball just look elsewhere?

The entire bullpen ai and the pitching roles were entirely re-done for 14.

So your experience from 13 is undoubtedly outdated and likely inaccurate. You still can't warm up pitchers in 14 (which would be nice to have though I hardly see it as a deal breaker like you apparently do) but other than that everything having to do with the bullpen and pitching roles has changed in 14. It would doubtless be worth your time to check out those changes as many of your bullpen related complaints may no longer be applicable.

[Fyrestorm3]

Originally Posted by RchW

If it works badly and makes the in-game experience worse, what then? Maybe my imagination is too good but I take the view that the AI is warming up the right relievers all the time and that I have to be at my best. We can out think the AI anyway so making it warm up pitchers would just be another advantage.

Totally agreed here, and I can see it having disastrous consequences. But with the option to turn it on or off, I think a "rough draft" for an AI warm-up rule is long overdue, so that it can get improved upon in every new version.

[oldtimey]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

The entire bullpen ai and the pitching roles were entirely re-done for 14.

So your experience from 13 is undoubtedly outdated and likely inaccurate. You still can't warm up pitchers in 14 (which would be nice to have though I hardly see it as a deal breaker like you apparently do) but other than that everything having to do with the bullpen and pitching roles has changed in 14. It would doubtless be worth your time to check out those changes as many of your bullpen related complaints may no longer be applicable.

The reason why this and other issues was a gamebreaker midway through my first OOTP13 season is because it did not allow me to play the way I prefer. Once the first pitch is thrown in a ballgame, I only want to watch the AI play itself. I have played many games in the past this way after heavily tweaking, then testing sliders and modifiers, and tweaking again until on-field gameplay was at its closest representation of major league baseball. I find no enjoyment in managing against any games AI. It's just too easy. And managing against myself is too much work, switching team control back and forth. So I just take control of every team, make roster moves and daily lineup and rotation decisions, choose a feature game to watch while simulating the rest of the league's games one-by-one in quick or fast mode. I have enjoyed baseball sims this way for years. I played the Earl Weaver series for 5 years because it was conducive to this method, from 1988 to 1992 I then switched to the Tony LaRussa series from 1993 through 1997. I played Front Page Sports: Baseball during The Great Homer Race of 1998, then switched to the High Heat series for the 2000 season and played that until I discovered MVP Baseball 2005 the year it came out, played that until I completed the 2011 season. I enjoyed my time with these games, playing with the aforementioned method. When I purchased my first first version of OOTP, (12) I expected a lot from the in-game AI, because, after all, there were no graphics to hog all the processing components like in all the games I had experienced. I was so disappointed in OOTP12 that I never gravitated past exhibition games. I went back to MVP Baseball 2005 and downloaded a mod that updated it to the 2012 season. But when OOTP13 promised much improved AI and an inproved play-by-play interface, along with the real-time scores (which I loved), I bought it and tried to love it (I made it to the All-Star Game), but got tired of the lack of late-inning bullpen drama, the AI changing lineups to batting orders that were just nonsense after I set up lineups pregame and virtually no situational infield strategy by the AI, at least as described in the play-by-play. No references to fielding shifts for pull or spray hitters. Description of plays that go to the right side of the infield, but thirdbasemen is identified as making the play. So, I quit (and I'm no quitter) and promised myself I wouldn't buy anymore versions of this product until I could use it the way that I enjoy it. Sure, I love graphics. I have a PS3 and enjoyed playing my version of 2013 with MLB 13 The Show. But I wouldn't have played it if it didn't allow me to play strictly AI-managed games, which it does very well. And I wouldn't have played those other games for multiple years if I they didn't allow me to play this way. If all this is too difficult to code into the game and because. I'm the only one crying about it, so it's not a priority, that's cool. I will shut up and move on. But love this community, because you guys really love your baseball. So I will probably just come in and lurk once in awhile.

[BusterKing]

I manage all my games in one pitch mode and only make my team player substitutions during the game so that I don't have any kind of advantage over the AI.

I also turned off the pitching warming up option to make it fair for both sides, in my world the pitching coaches are smart enough to decide who is ready and should be pitching next. So I don't really miss that feature.

What I would like to see are a lot more new comments being made during pbp. Seems like there are very few new ones for every new version.

More comments about how a player is doing, the result of his last at bat, his streaks. Returning to play after an injury.... all that good stuff that is mentioned during a RL game.

[pstrickert]

Originally Posted by oldtimey

I find no enjoyment in managing against any games AI. It's just too easy.

The consensus (on different forums) is that the AI in sports sims will never be a match for the human brain. As a beta tester, I know for a fact that Markus tries to improve the AI each time. (For example, Markus has made major strides in the Trade AI, IMO.) But I also run into AI flaws from time to time. I guess I've learned to live with it, considering it a work in progress. Not everyone has the same level of tolerance, I suppose.

Originally Posted by oldtimey

But when OOTP13 promised much improved AI and an inproved play-by-play interface, along with the real-time scores (which I loved), I bought it and tried to love it (I made it to the All-Star Game), but got tired of the lack of late-inning bullpen drama, the AI changing lineups to batting orders that were just nonsense after I set up lineups pregame and virtually no situational infield strategy by the AI, at least as described in the play-by-play. No references to fielding shifts for pull or spray hitters. Description of plays that go to the right side of the infield, but thirdbasemen is identified as making the play.

To be honest, PbP has been a low priority for Markus (IMO). Until more people complain, it'll remain that way. I'm not sure how much more "drama" can be added to late-inning bullpen moves. What did you have in mind? "X is warming up in the bullpen"? That kind of thing?


To date, nothing has been done with our suggestions for describing situational infield strategies in the PbP. I have an open PbP suggestion thread in the beta forum. This is what it contains:


1. use the PbP to explain how an injury occurred in game

2. reference to the umpire calling time and calling for the tarp (i.e., due to rain)

3. reference in the PbP to rain coming down (or possibility of rain)

4. reference in the PbP to the wind if it is blowing particularly hard

5. reference in the PbP to the length of any rain delay

6. reference to pitchers “up” in the bullpen

7. reference to visits to the mound by manager or pitching coach

8. reference to context (“The leadoff batter has reached base for Pittsburgh every inning so far.” Or: “That’s Perez’s second walk this inning.”)

9. reference to pitching style (e.g., sidewinder, submarine, three-quarters, etc.)

10. reference to the pitcher’s move (e.g., “Carlton has one of the best moves to first…”)

11. reference to series stats (e.g., “So far in the series, Jackson is 3-for-10.”)

12. reference to the on-deck batter (e.g., “Bando waits to bat in the on-deck circle.”)

13. reference to the number of batters retired in a row (e.g., Schilling has retired 10 consecutive batters.”)

14. reference to team or league records (e.g., Jackson is fifth all-time for Oakland with 285 home runs.”)

15. reference to number of hits given up in a row (e.g., “Johnson has given up four consecutive base hits.”)

16. utilize common phrases such as “three up, three down” or “Johnson retires the side in order in the fifth.”)

17. reference to earlier at bats (or last at bat) (e.g., “Mayberry flied out deep to right his last time up.” Or: “Mayberry has flied out twice in two at bats.”)

18. reference to a pitcher pitch total when he nears or reaches 100

19. use of umpires’ names (if provided – real or fake)

20. use of managers’ names

21. reference to the batter’s place in the batting order (e.g., “Ortiz, the clean-up hitter, stands in…” Or: “Back to the top of the order . . . / here’s Damon . . .”)

22. reference to team totals (e.g., “the Rangers have now committed three errors in this game” or: “That’s hit number 12 for the Orioles this afternoon” or: “In four innings, the Reds have left 8 men on base.”)

23. reference in PbP to infield defense (e.g., playing "in" or an infield shift)

24. reference to catcher blocking a pitch in the dirt (and, thus, keep the runner from advancing)

25. reference to infielders looking back the runner (on second or third base) before throwing to first for the out


Again, it is a matter of priorities. Until Markus hears more clamor about the PbP, he'll probably turn his attention to other priorities.

Originally Posted by oldtimey

. If all this is too difficult to code into the game and because. I'm the only one crying about it, so it's not a priority, that's cool. I will shut up and move on. But love this community, because you guys really love your baseball. So I will probably just come in and lurk once in awhile.

I appreciate your candor.

[Gil Thorp]

I don't get the complaints about the PBP. Sure, anything could be better. It's fantastic when compared to what it was 10 years ago and my thanks go out to the people who've worked on it.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Gil Thorp

I don't get the complaints about the PBP. Sure, anything could be better. It's fantastic when compared to what it was 10 years ago and my thanks go out to the people who've worked on it.

If you had ever played Diamond Mind then you would understand the complaints about the PVP.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by pstrickert

The consensus (on different forums) is that the AI in sports sims will never be a match for the human brain. As a beta tester, I know for a fact that Markus tries to improve the AI each time. (For example, Markus has made major strides in the Trade AI, IMO.) But I also run into AI flaws from time to time. I guess I've learned to live with it, considering it a work in progress. Not everyone has the same level of tolerance, I suppose.





To be honest, PbP has been a low priority for Markus (IMO). Until more people complain, it'll remain that way. I'm not sure how much more "drama" can be added to late-inning bullpen moves. What did you have in mind? "X is warming up in the bullpen"? That kind of thing?


To date, nothing has been done with our suggestions for describing situational infield strategies in the PbP. I have an open PbP suggestion thread in the beta forum. This is what it contains:


1. use the PbP to explain how an injury occurred in game

2. reference to the umpire calling time and calling for the tarp (i.e., due to rain)

3. reference in the PbP to rain coming down (or possibility of rain)

4. reference in the PbP to the wind if it is blowing particularly hard

5. reference in the PbP to the length of any rain delay

6. reference to pitchers “up” in the bullpen

7. reference to visits to the mound by manager or pitching coach

8. reference to context (“The leadoff batter has reached base for Pittsburgh every inning so far.” Or: “That’s Perez’s second walk this inning.”)

9. reference to pitching style (e.g., sidewinder, submarine, three-quarters, etc.)

10. reference to the pitcher’s move (e.g., “Carlton has one of the best moves to first…”)

11. reference to series stats (e.g., “So far in the series, Jackson is 3-for-10.”)

12. reference to the on-deck batter (e.g., “Bando waits to bat in the on-deck circle.”)

13. reference to the number of batters retired in a row (e.g., Schilling has retired 10 consecutive batters.”)

14. reference to team or league records (e.g., Jackson is fifth all-time for Oakland with 285 home runs.”)

15. reference to number of hits given up in a row (e.g., “Johnson has given up four consecutive base hits.”)

16. utilize common phrases such as “three up, three down” or “Johnson retires the side in order in the fifth.”)

17. reference to earlier at bats (or last at bat) (e.g., “Mayberry flied out deep to right his last time up.” Or: “Mayberry has flied out twice in two at bats.”)

18. reference to a pitcher pitch total when he nears or reaches 100

19. use of umpires’ names (if provided – real or fake)

20. use of managers’ names

21. reference to the batter’s place in the batting order (e.g., “Ortiz, the clean-up hitter, stands in…” Or: “Back to the top of the order . . . / here’s Damon . . .”)

22. reference to team totals (e.g., “the Rangers have now committed three errors in this game” or: “That’s hit number 12 for the Orioles this afternoon” or: “In four innings, the Reds have left 8 men on base.”)

23. reference in PbP to infield defense (e.g., playing "in" or an infield shift)

24. reference to catcher blocking a pitch in the dirt (and, thus, keep the runner from advancing)

25. reference to infielders looking back the runner (on second or third base) before throwing to first for the out


Again, it is a matter of priorities. Until Markus hears more clamor about the PbP, he'll probably turn his attention to other priorities.

Thank you for this. PBP needs to be much more of a priority than it is now.

[Jelloo]

My number 1 priority in the game is the PbP.

I would buy and play only diamond mind if it was cost effective (included Lahman instead of needing to purchase individual teams or seasons). The ootp pbp is pretty good and I will continue with ver 14 until it's vastly improved or if the graphics get really good.

[pstrickert]

I haven't played DMB in perhaps three years. But I'm sure the PbP is still quite good. That said, even the PbP in DMB can be repetitive at times (which cannot be avoided, I know). Markus, if he added some of the items on our list, could make the OOTP PbP the new gold standard, IMO.

[oldtimey]

Yes! In response to pstrickert, everything you said is what I have harping about. This kind of detail is why I prefer listening to the radio broadcasts of Major League Baseball. To me, the text-based sim is "radio" compared it the graphics PC or console game being "TV." I like the radio coverage of baseball because of it is information-based and more detailed in its description of the on-field action. Yes, DMB is very expensive, as was another game that I had, Baseball for Windows Baseball Blast featuring Ernie Harwell. Everything apart from the basic game package had to be purchased separately.

I have restored faith in this being addressed, seeing that I am not the only voice crying in the wilderness. You guys love baseball, you love this game, and I am honored to be apart of this forum. Markus and his team have put forth a wonderful product for years and he has the burden of weighing what is priority and what is feasible. That's a tough job and I apologize, in the wake of all the upgrades for OOTP15, these ramblings have made it an even tougher job.

[endgame]

Originally Posted by oldtimey

Yes! In response to pstrickert.

Yep. And that's why he's the guy I had in mind to chime in! Nothing but the best from 'strickert. Always. Every time.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by RchW

If it works badly and makes the in-game experience worse, what then? Maybe my imagination is too good but I take the view that the AI is warming up the right relievers all the time and that I have to be at my best. We can out think the AI anyway so making it warm up pitchers would just be another advantage.

This. A warm-up AI that could compete with a human is pretty much impossible IMO.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

If you had ever played Diamond Mind then you would understand the complaints about the PVP.

I find the PbP of DMB to be rather dull, to be honest. It was better than OOTP years ao, but thanks to the help of pstrickert (and other from the text team), I think we have the best PbP on the market.