Just Need to Vent

[yzerwing]

First, I hope this game will be great, and top EHM 2007!

That being said, this latest patch, with its improvements and all, is so unstable. Playing into a third season, it has crashed many times, and eventhough it will eventually reload and move on, it continues to crash from me simply taking one guy out of the lineup for another, or from nothing done other then simply simming through.

Now, the thing that really annoyed me, the game crashed and when I reload it on the 4th attempt to move a day, a created player I made, who was leading my team in defense-man points, is suddenly gone. I have him shortlisted and he is now listed as A AJ, so I click on him and it turns out to be Luke Adam of the Buffalo Sabres. Not my team and not my player, ARGH!

If we can't even edit free agents to make a player of our choosing without the game breaking, then the fun goes out the window. I have been massively patient as we all have, but this is a released version of a game, nearly two months into its full release and you can't manage to make it past a few seasons, unless you touch nothing and edit nothing, which seems to be the only thing that lets you keep going. So frustrating!

Tack on the things like star players dropping massively in rating, within a few seasons. Example, Claude Giroux rated 8.5 to start put up 69 pts in the first season, then 50 plus points in season two. Then as the third season is going along he drops to an 8 rated player and puts up 44 pts playing first line minutes. This is just one player, but there are many examples of this, and that is with aging on very slow, which helps it some, but still way unrealistic.

As great as having Historic and Custom stuff is, I actually wish for the rest of this versions life, those were no longer worked on, and the core present game was worked on until it was awesome.

It is just so frustrating to put a lot of time into 2 or 3 seasons, and then having to start from scratch, yet again!

[Smetana]

Yup, you're right. Extremely frustrating. So many little broken pieces of code that lead to unexplained, unforseeable crashes. makes you afraid to click the "wrong" thing, or even to breathe wrong on the game, trying to avoid these little hiccups.

Amazing, really, when you look back at all the months of free beta testing the development team got in advance of the game's release. I expected something a bit more polished.

Oh well. Can't change the past. I'd wager the devs would if they could. Gotta move forward and hope for a better tomorrow...

[nelsoncat]

it is really frustrating, but it was more frustrating waiting for 6 years with no decent hockey sim even in the works. I am happy that the fhm crew is working on this game, and because I am grateful and hopeful that the game will be better than EHMone day, I decided to try OOTP while I wait. I am not really even a casual fan of baseball, I watch the playoffs if nothing else is on. OOTP14 has me hooked though, and it is making the wait more bearable for FHM. So thanks to the crew, and please...PLEASE keep working on it..it's appreciated.

[rocksbury]

The premise of the game is incredible...an Ootp hockey game.
I couldn't imagine hockey would get done before football, soccer, or Basketball yet here we are.

The ability to create players, edit them to your team, create a new team in your league and change small details would make this game alright for a first version.
As of right now it should be a free open beta. More people contributing to fixing the game would benefit it greatly.

[mabus]

I think most of us have spent the past 6+ years dreaming of an OOTP hockey sim, am i right? When I heard this was being developed I bought it within 10 minutes, i didn't even hesitate.

Its a work in progress, but it is getting there. It's worth being a little patient with.

[GMO123]

While I still support this game and hope it succeeds there are far too many problems with it.
Hopefully all the devs resources go into fixing the basics and leave everything else for the future until they get the basic, core game to work right.
If the basic game works and people can play it without major problems most people will become forgiving of the small things.

[Winnipeg59]

This is going to sound awful and I don't mean it to, but I've tried each "version" or "patch", find a few things that simply aren't ready and then just shelve it.

I purchased right at the beginning, have absolutely no intention of seeking a refund or even complaining (aside from this little one), even posted some run-throughs in the forum of a couple of earlier versions...but it's way too frustrating to beta-test this for free.

I'll just keep the faith and hope, one day, soon, (ish), please, this is OOTP for hockey!

Keep at it people...

[Penfold75]

I must admit my patience is starting to grow thin as I am suffering a lot of crashes as well especially since the last patch. Also the deterioraton of players too soon in their careers when they should really be hitting their peak years is really annoying.

They really need to get the basics of a hockey GM game working and fix the parts of the game that have been disabled before they bolt on any new bits. This just doesn't feel like a game that has gone through a lengthy period of beta testing. It feels more like a game that should be at the beginning of that process.

[spitfire]

Originally Posted by Penfold75

This just doesn't feel like a game that has gone through a lengthy period of beta testing. It feels more like a game that should be at the beginning of that process.

As has been mentioned several times by several people, it appears the developers errored in trying to cram too much stuff into this first release. Getting it all working even after the lengthy beta period would take a huge amount of testing and bug-fix programming ......... getting it all working TOGETHER is a whole order of magnitude harder. One almost wishes they'd take a do-over on the whole concept and go back to square one with a nice basic hockey sim that does the NHL as the only playable league. The other bits and pieces could be added in with patches or new annual releases. Unfortunately there isn't much chance of turning back the clock and pretending this version never happened. The game is huge and it's ambitious. It rather seems as though they tried to skip a bunch of steps and emulate the complexity of OOTP14 in their first release, rather than taking smaller steps.

Given the size of the team working on the game, to get everything in there functioning the way everyone wants to see it might well take a couple of years, never mind a few patches. Though there will always be diehards who keep hanging in, I wonder how many new people or casual fans will be happy with their purchase once they find out how far away the game is from living up to expectations? At very least, I hope the developers will consider substantially reducing the price for the next version, and perhaps lowering those expectations by changing the existing marketing scheme to indicate that some advertised features are still works in progress. While I haven't become an FHM player, I'd love to see a career GM sim and hope the game will one day live up to its promise.

[JeffR]

The problem with a lot of these bugs is that we need savegames to check them, and just haven't been getting any - the last user-uploaded save to our ftp server was over a month ago. Yzerwing, I spent quite a bit of time yesterday tyring to repeat the problem you reported with AHL players getting excessive playing time, but couldn't get it to happen. A save with where it's occurring, or when a crash happens, would be extremely helpful in getting these sorts of issues fixed.

The uploading instructions, if anyone needs them: How to FTP files to OOTP Developments - Kayako eSupport Help Desk Software

(Use the /fhm directory instead of the OOTP one. It's also helpful if you include a short text file describing your problem in case we have trouble finding the forum post.)

And if you can't use the ftp server, posting the save on a filesharing site and giving us a link to it works, too.

[nelsoncat]

again, I am very appreciative of what you guys are trying to accomplish, but that explanation kind of makes it sound like you are making it the customers fault that the bugs aren't getting worked out. I don't think we have any obligation to upload saved games to the makers, reporting them should be fine ,no? a lot of us HAVE paid for the game, I don't see why we should have to put in anytime to make it playable.

[Orioles1966]

How come we can't have a notification per team when they don't have enough players dressed? Instead will we have to go through each team's roster to figure out what team's are short of players.

Another option could be where the rosters could automatically fill with fictional players if enough players under contract don't exist.

[gmerger]

Originally Posted by JeffR

The problem with a lot of these bugs is that we need savegames to check them, and just haven't been getting any - the last user-uploaded save to our ftp server was over a month ago. Yzerwing, I spent quite a bit of time yesterday tyring to repeat the problem you reported with AHL players getting excessive playing time, but couldn't get it to happen. A save with where it's occurring, or when a crash happens, would be extremely helpful in getting these sorts of issues fixed.

The uploading instructions, if anyone needs them: How to FTP files to OOTP Developments - Kayako eSupport Help Desk Software

(Use the /fhm directory instead of the OOTP one. It's also helpful if you include a short text file describing your problem in case we have trouble finding the forum post.)

And if you can't use the ftp server, posting the save on a filesharing site and giving us a link to it works, too.

Let me preface this by saying that I have received a refund for my game and I am essentially out of the FHM 13 process for now. I tried to be patient, I tried to post bugs and stuff when I could but I am sorry I did not pay $30 to beta test this game for 2 years.

The line of thinking above is really a smack in the face for people who paid money for this game. Perhaps the reason no one has uploaded a save game in a month is because people are sick of essentially paying OOTP to beta test this game. Or perhaps even people are just tired of playing a game which is "unplayable" or "not fun" depending on your definition of each.

I am certainly glad someone has taken a chance to enter the sim hockey world but unfortunately I cannot get behind the thinking of the devs of FHM 13. All of us here have paid money to play the game, but really what we are asked to do is invest money in the game and work for free as beta testers. That is fine and I understand many are willing and able to do that to support this game and such, but frankly many of us can not do that and should not be sold on the idea that this game would be playable or finished and we should not have been charged for it. If the devs and OOTP would have come out and said they were looking for people to invest and Beta test for 2 years I wouldn't have a problem, but I do have a problem of trying to do this under the mask of releasing a finished working product.

I know the defenders will chime in here and attack me but I just wanted to get this off my chest and this venting thread seemed to be the best avenue. I will definitely be keeping tabs on the development of FHM and hopefully in a few years it reaches the point of being a solid entry into the sim world. But I just cannot support the business model of FHM 13, and how the game has been pushed to the market.

[Smetana]

Nah, not going to attack you. You've made your position clear, in a civil manner, and I can respect it.

Everybody has their own idea of what they should expect, as a paying customer, from OOTP Developments. Some expect a polished product off the shelf, and aren't interested in assisting with testing and feedback, and that's fine.

Others are more willing to cut some slack, to provide feedback and suggestions, in the hopes that they can help the devs improve the product. Because improving the product is in everybody's best interest--both customer and developer alike.

Both types of customer are justified in their position and thought process.

[AlpineSK]

Problems with AHL teams regardless of what they are have been well documented, especially by Ciccarelli's tracking of who is signing who, and for what etc..

As for the saved game issue, I am sorry, but I have to agree with gmerger. I HAVE been critical of this game, I fully admit that, and I have taken some knocks on the forum because of it, but I paid for a full product. I participated in BETA, and I had lofty expectations for what a lengthy testing period with a lot of dedicated supporters could provide to the gaming world, especially with OOTP Baseball's track record as being such an amazing game. I am sure people uploaded A LOT of files during the BETA period, but come September 3rd, we expect YOU to do the work FOR US.. The BETA period exists for us to help test the product. After release it all comes down to you. You're giving us what was supposed to at least be a nearly finished product.

Many have said that they wanted OOTP Baseball but applied to hockey, and I have to agree.. i expected the same thing: the UI is friendly, and easy to use. Information is right at your fingertips seemingly all the time. Instead, they started from scratch. One thing I find to be frustrating is the 4+ inch gap between a player's name and where the stats/ratings start, regardless of what resolution I play the game in. With no grid lines etc.. following some of that can be extremely difficult.

So this is my venting session... Go ahead and flame away, tell me how great the game is, tell me how much faith you have in the developers. I have faith in them as well.. They have given me generation upon generation of a game that I continue to buy, and I NEVER grow tired of. I NEVER put OOTP aside because the game gets boring, and when I am looking for something different, it is always the first thing I load up..

Truth is though, my faith and confidence is starting to slip a bit.. FHM is a flop, and I hope they can recover it, but only time will tell...

[TEHLUDDITE]

I'm not about to bash anyone here, but if I am understanding the posts that followed JeffR's post correctly, there is a presumption of arrogance in Jeff's reply to the thread that I don't see in it. Rather, I see a plea for help.

I will say that I am among the legion of community members no longer playing the game due to its various shortcomings. Am I angry about that?...not really, but I have no trouble understanding those who are. Everyone's opinion counts.

What I do have trouble understanding is how the forum posts often fail to add to the discussion in the way that they would if we were members of a true community. This is just my opinion, but really the damage has been done in the way the game has been launched and continually banging on about that without offering aid seems like beating a dead horse. What everyone who bought the game wanted was a great hockey sim, so why not harness our energy and work toward that in whatever capacity we can?

Jeff and the dev team are in a tough spot. Did they put themselves there? Absolutely. Should we stand idly by while they attempt to rescue the project? Maybe. However, what I see in the various posts by the devs is that they are really feeling the heat. They'd like to fix every bug that is reported and I feel sorry for them that they only have so many man-hours that can be invested in doing that. This is why Jeff is pleading for save-games, as I am sure you have all realized...more efficient use of the resources the team has available. No one is obligated to upload ("beta-test") for the dev team and I would never be critical of anyone who says they are not willing to do that. Still, I have to ask...how could it hurt?

[gmerger]

Originally Posted by TEHLUDDITE

I'm not about to bash anyone here, but if I am understanding the posts that followed JeffR's post correctly, there is a presumption of arrogance in Jeff's reply to the thread that I don't see in it. Rather, I see a plea for help.

I will say that I am among the legion of community members no longer playing the game due to its various shortcomings. Am I angry about that?...not really, but I have no trouble understanding those who are. Everyone's opinion counts.

What I do have trouble understanding is how the forum posts often fail to add to the discussion in the way that they would if we were members of a true community. This is just my opinion, but really the damage has been done in the way the game has been launched and continually banging on about that without offering aid seems like beating a dead horse. What everyone who bought the game wanted was a great hockey sim, so why not harness our energy and work toward that in whatever capacity we can?

Jeff and the dev team are in a tough spot. Did they put themselves there? Absolutely. Should we stand idly by while they attempt to rescue the project? Maybe. However, what I see in the various posts by the devs is that they are really feeling the heat. They'd like to fix every bug that is reported and I feel sorry for them that they only have so many man-hours that can be invested in doing that. This is why Jeff is pleading for save-games, as I am sure you have all realized...more efficient use of the resources the team has available. No one is obligated to upload ("beta-test") for the dev team and I would never be critical of anyone who says they are not willing to do that. Still, I have to ask...how could it hurt?

My post was more a plea to the devs to stop trying to "have their cake and eat it to" if they want save games and continued help beta testing, don't charge people money as if the game was a finished product and refund those who have spent money on this game. Give people the game for free and have them report bugs and things to help them out, expectations would be lower and I bet people would be more willing to help out. The release of this game and proceeding weeks have clearly left a bad taste in everyones mouth, so much so that a lot of people are saying they have stopped playing and no new save games have been uploaded in a month.

Charging people money for the game and then asking for help making the game playable seems wrong to me, and again maybe its just me but I would be more willing to give the devs the benefit of the doubt if they weren't trying to charge people money for a finished product while actively admitting the game is not a finished product, and then going further and asking those paying customers help in making the game a finished product.

My argument is they need to choose one or the other, can't have it both in my opinion. The devs have been good about admitting they made some mistakes with this first release, but in my opinion they have not done enough to try to solve the problem moving forward. FHM is turning out to be a flop more and more everday, giving the game away for free and asking for users to continue to help may be drastic but at this point it's the only way I would be willing to come back to the '13 edition of the game.

[AlpineSK]

A couple of points..

1. This is not a community. This is the internet. We eat our own here.

2. It's not a matter of arrogance.. or perceived arrogance. There have been issues that have been well documented and unaddressed.. If his above post came in June, in the middle of BETA, then absolutely, that is what should happen. But this is a game that has been "fully released."

3. The anger I think comes largely from the $40 price tag. In the world of PC gaming, and especially PC sports gaming (and it is a limited market) that is quite the price to pay for a game. The "Great" games, namely OOTP Baseball and Football Manager carry a price tag similar or in FM's case higher than that, and they deliver on the promises of quality in their gaming.

4. You are correct, there is some useless banter on this forum, but I for one am kind of happy this topic was started.. Sometimes people need to vent. They need the people who produced a product for them to know that they are dissatisfied. Do you think 20 years ago in 1993 people who were unhappy with NHL '93 would be calling up EA and complaining? Personally, I doubt it. The internet (see comment #1) gives us the ability to voice our opinion.

5. Finally, you're right. They ARE in a tough spot. If they want help, I almost at this point feel like they need to meet the community in the middle. If there was a promised discount for FHM 14 for people who bought 13 for example, with admission of "yeah, this version was no where near what we expected, but with your help, we can make the next generation into the game YOU want! And we are going to give you a discount for sticking with us and helping us" then I think that will go a long way.

But if the dev team is going to say "this is it unless you help us" they're pretty much holding us hostage with the product that they have already given us unless the input comes largely from the "community."

Or they could just hire Ciccarelli...

[derek412]

Originally Posted by AlpineSK

Or they could just hire Ciccarelli...

Yeah, probably not, though they should.

I wrote the devs very early on volunteering my service, explaining my 20 years as a designer, developer, beta tester and programmer of sim and strategy games, sports and military related. I didn't even get a response, so hiring Ciccarelli probably isn't in the cards.

[Ciccarelli]

I'm not going to say that the game is good at this point (I haven't really played the game on a day-to-day basis for couple reasons. One being fear of crashes). It's improving in many aspects, especially when compared to the painful release version, but FHM is in a rough situation right now.

The biggest problem that the programmers have dealt with is that they're desperately trying to please everyone they can (what with the plethora of playing modes, not including online mode and full customization) when they have neither the time nor the manpower to do so. And when you try and please everyone, you end up doing the polar opposite and the forums turn into a total warzone.

Thus they have three options:

1. Hire more programmers, developers and testers (because, IMO, a startup game with the features this game has should have at least 7-8 coders to get everything up to speed).
2. Abandon the majority of the game's features to concentrate on one or two aspects of the game (which includes fixing bugs that pop up).
3. Continue to add features to the game without addressing current issues.

There's no way that #1 is happening (that pesky thing called money gets in the way of that) and #3 will probably lead to another fan backlash, from what I can see, so the second choice is the only reasonable option they have. That option is going to anger people as well, considering there are niche fanbases within this game itself. The question is do they listen to the people complaining or try to do what they feel is best for the game (which will probably be answered when the next patch comes out).

Originally Posted by AlpineSK

Or they could just hire Ciccarelli...

Then the game will totally descend into the abyss.