Should this pitcher be in the HOF?

[Peregrine]

I am running an alternate historical league - historical players but they are picked in a draft to non-historical teams. I am just the commissioner and normally try to keep the riffraff the game can assign to the Hall of Fame out (by manually removing them.) Specifically, it seems sometimes that any pitcher with 200 wins can get in - but Andy Messersmith is a tough case.

He was the most dominant pitcher in baseball in his career, until it was abruptly cut short by an injury setback CEI. Statistically he only has barely over 200 wins, but his winning percentage is the highest in baseball history for any pitcher with more than 6 years as a starter. He is also in the top 50 pitchers all-time in strikeouts

Should he stay or should be go?

[ihatenames]

I would vote yes. 204 wins in a little over 10 years is still really impressive. Couple that with an era that was well above average for the league and to me he is a clear hall of famer despite short career.

[JMDurron]

I think he gets in under the Koufax/Pedro dominance exception. If you're awesome enough, you don't have to do it for as long as the "pretty good for a really long time" guys.

[joefromchicago]

Originally Posted by JMDurron

I think he gets in under the Koufax/Pedro dominance exception. If you're awesome enough, you don't have to do it for as long as the "pretty good for a really long time" guys.

Yes, he's also in the same category as Addie Joss and Dizzy Dean - dominant pitchers whose careers were cut short by injuries. Averaging twenty wins a year over a decade is pretty darned impressive, and I assume he accumulated a fair number of awards along the way as well. I'd vote for him.

[Jabez54]

5 Stars Pitcher ... A Resounding "YES"

[Peregrine]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

Yes, he's also in the same category as Addie Joss and Dizzy Dean - dominant pitchers whose careers were cut short by injuries. Averaging twenty wins a year over a decade is pretty darned impressive, and I assume he accumulated a fair number of awards along the way as well. I'd vote for him.

The competition for AL Cy Young during his career was really fierce - he had two Cy Youngs, in '74 and '77, as well as Rookie of the Year, and 5 All-Star nods.

[Padreman]

Yes out him in there Sandy Kofax type numbers

[slic1149]

I can see why you asked, but I don't really think you needed to. Just put him and the HOF and thank your lucky stars you had the chance to "see" a pitcher of that caliber. I can't possibly see how you can keep him out with those numbers.

[Peregrine]

Thanks guys - I really was leaning towards leaving him in - but it was an interesting case to hear some other opinions on.

[Scottiedog]

I'd be compelled to say yes. However, it's by the skin of his teeth kind of deal. He put up some good numbers, yet only for a short period.

[VanillaGorilla]

For me, this is a no brainer. The rule I use is 10 years of ML service time. He has that, therefore he can be considered.

The thing that jumps out at me is this:

For 10 consecutive seasons he started at least 35 games.

In those 10 seasons he never lost more than 16 games.

In those 10 seasons he never won fewer than 16 games.

That is amazing. I do not know if any pitcher IRL has had a 10 year stretch with 35 starts per season and no single season loss total greater than any single win total. I have something to look up, now.

HOFer in a heartbeat.

[Curve Ball Dave]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

Yes, he's also in the same category as Addie Joss and Dizzy Dean - dominant pitchers whose careers were cut short by injuries.

Actually, Addie Joss' career was cut short by death. In the short time he pitched, he had one of the lowest WHIPs in baseball history.

I have Joss in my fictional league (I start with a mix of players from all eras and let the game generate the fictional players as time goes by). He's one of the best in baseball. In nine seasons, pitching in a hitter friendly park in Las Vegas, Joss is 150-98 (including one no-hitter) with a 3.09 ERA. His lifetime WHIP is 1.18. In 241.1 innings in the current season, he has walked only 34 batters.

The real Addie Joss deserves to be the in the HOF. The fictional will get there too

[r0nster]

i would say he be on the bubble more or less a 50-50 entry chance

[VanillaGorilla]

Originally Posted by VanillaGorilla

For me, this is a no brainer. The rule I use is 10 years of ML service time. He has that, therefore he can be considered.

The thing that jumps out at me is this:

For 10 consecutive seasons he started at least 35 games.

In those 10 seasons he never lost more than 16 games.

In those 10 seasons he never won fewer than 16 games.

That is amazing. I do not know if any pitcher IRL has had a 10 year stretch with 35 starts per season and no single season loss total greater than any single win total. I have something to look up, now.

HOFer in a heartbeat.

I went through the top 50 in career wins and top 50 in career starts and found 2 pitchers, Cy Young and Kid Nichols, who have accomplished this feat, IRL.

If you fudge the numbers a hair to account for war time service, Bob Feller also could be on the list.

Forget about the W/L qualifier, finding pitchers with 35 GS in 10 consecutive seasons yields a short list, on its own.

[r0nster]

if the last quailification for HOF to be based on 35 starts a season for 10 years then I would say NO WAY!!!!!!!!!!!

[VanillaGorilla]

Originally Posted by r0nster

if the last quailification for HOF to be based on 35 starts a season for 10 years then I would say NO WAY!!!!!!!!!!!

Firstly, I said 10 consecutive seasons with at least 35 GS.

Also, I didn't say it was a qualification, just pointing out how rarely it has been accomplished. The number of pitchers in the HOF with at least 10 consecutive seasons of at least 35 GS? Three. Young, Nichols, and Pud Galvin.

Messersmith, here, started in 1968. No pitcher from this era, IRL had 10 consecutive 35 start seasons (even if we throw out 1981 to continue a string).

And this was a pitcher's era. All of the great names we think of, Gibson, Marichal, Drysdale, Ryan, Seaver, Carlton, Palmer, Sutton, Niekro, Perry, and on and on....none of them ever did it.

35 GS in 10 straight years is an amazing feat, on its own.

[ThatSeventiesGuy]

I'd put him in. Over 200 W, and the W % is excellent, over a 2-to-1 ratio. Plus excellent WHIP, and fine ERA and K stats. Not to mention six 20-win campaigns, and a couple 19-win ones. No reason not to, IMO.

[joefromchicago]

Originally Posted by Curve Ball Dave

Actually, Addie Joss' career was cut short by death.

Players don't die in OOTP

[Padreman]

Originally Posted by Curve Ball Dave

Actually, Addie Joss' career was cut short by death. In the short time he pitched, he had one of the lowest WHIPs in baseball history.

I have Joss in my fictional league (I start with a mix of players from all eras and let the game generate the fictional players as time goes by). He's one of the best in baseball. In nine seasons, pitching in a hitter friendly park in Las Vegas, Joss is 150-98 (including one no-hitter) with a 3.09 ERA. His lifetime WHIP is 1.18. In 241.1 innings in the current season, he has walked only 34 batters.

The real Addie Joss deserves to be the in the HOF. The fictional will get there too

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ayers-die.html

[hfield007]

The average pitcher who was voted in to the real hall of game had a ten year peak war average of 54... He eclipses that. The ten year stretch seems to be the most common and important factor between hall of famers. of