Speed: A Steal: E

HomieGee · 05-24-2002, 10:11 AM

One of my players has a speed of A but a stealing ability of E. He is so far 2 for 9 in stealing, which is down right terrible for a person of his speed. Even though he is fast well he ever be a good base stealer or should i just stop trying to steal with him?

thanks for you advice

JML · 05-24-2002, 10:18 AM

I would stop trying with him. Problem is, the speed rating determines ability to get a jump, and the steal rating says his jumps are terrible. So a player like this will try to steal a ton of bags and fail miserably.

EagleEye_0 · 05-24-2002, 10:43 AM

I think JML meant his stealing ability determines his ability to get a jump and not speed.

JML · 05-24-2002, 10:48 AM

Nope. I meant speed rating. I'm pretty sure this is correct. A guy with D speed and A stealing will have trouble getting a good jump, but when he does he will steal at a high success rate.

JimboGM · 05-24-2002, 01:35 PM

I think it is the other way around JML.

This is taken from the scouting report of Eric Byrnes, who has an A in running speed but an E in stealing ability:

"He has amazing speed, he just hasn't gotten his timing down as far as being a base stealer."

If I am reading this correctly I think this means that Byrnes just cannot get a good jump at all, thus his E rated stealing ability. However once he gets going Byrnes can really fly (and steal bases). So I think players with A speed and E stealing are just faster when running around the bases and in the field, but they can't steal worth crap.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

IatricSB · 05-24-2002, 02:04 PM

I thought it was the opposite. Stealing I thought determined how many times they would attempt and speed would determine how many times they were successful. But I'm not positive. Was thinking of posting this as a question. Any other ideas?

Dargone · 05-24-2002, 02:09 PM

I've always thought of it like JimboGm describes. However, it could easily be the other way. Steve or Markus perhaps you could shed some light on this discussion?

OOTP Rocks · 05-24-2002, 05:10 PM

I think you guys are just misinterpreting the wording of what JML is trying to say.

What JML is trying to say (in my opinion), is that speed rating determines the probability that the player will attempt to steal. Whereas, stealing ability determines how successful they are in those attempts (success rate).

What I think JML meant when he said "ability to get a jump" is the player's ability to "attempt a jump".

Obviously the steal rating is represented as the player's timing or instincts when stealing bases (in other words, "how good a jump they get").

As an example, you have Devon White and Rickey Henderson. Devon White was in fact faster than Rickey Henderson (beat him in a race around the diamond), but Devon White just couldn't get his timing down and thus wasn't a very good base stealer. Whereas, Rickey Henderson was the best base stealer ever, not just because he had good speed, but because he was amazing at timing his jumps.

mtw · 05-24-2002, 10:05 PM

I think both ratings are both used to determine frequency of attempts and both ratings determine likelihood of success, but Speed has much more weight in determining how often a player attempts to steal and Steal has much more weight in determining success of a steal attempt.

Having tracked this on occasion in my league in several different seasons, a player who is rated speed/steal as A/A will steal more often than a player rated A/E; a player rated E/A will steal more often than a player rated E/E; and a player rated A/E will steal much more often than a player rated E/E (attempted steals of 2nd per time on 1st base with 2nd base open).

A/E players are better at stealing bases than E/E players on a % basis, but not by that much, maybe 35% success vs. 25% (this refers to steals of 2nd, not the trailing runner on double steals).

HomieGee · 05-25-2002, 06:08 AM

thanks for your replies...but i'm still kinda fuzzy...we need a WTF emoticon.

JML · 05-25-2002, 01:04 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by HomieGee:
thanks for your replies...but i'm still kinda fuzzy...we need a WTF emoticon.<hr /></blockquote>How's this:

OK, I'll try this again...

I once had a 2B with D run speed and A stealing ability. I played nearly every game of 4 seasons with this guy as my leadoff hitter.

I tried to steal with this guy pretty much every time he got on base. Still he would only end up with 35 steals or so each season.

The reason for this was that he would rarely get a good jump to steal. Usually, he would get on, I would hit "steal 2nd" and he would not get a good jump, therefore he wouldn't even attempt a steal.

Does that make sense? He had low speed, so he would rarely get a good jump, therefore he would rarely head for second base. When he did go, however, he was almost always successful, because of his A steal rating.

Think of real life players: If they have committed to stealing a base, they will usually go whether they got a good jump or not. In OOTP, a "good jump" is required before a guy will even take off.

edm · 05-25-2002, 11:56 PM

I always assumed that the speed rating was separate from a players ability to steal bases (in OOTP). Meaning the speed rating was instead the players ability to go from 1st to 3rd, 2nd to home, etc. (basically his skill/speed running the bases).

And that the steal rating was the main or only factor when it came to that players ability to steal bases successfully. For example his ability to get a good jump on the pitcher.

Although JML's theory makes sense as well. Bottom line is, unless your players steal rating is an A, B, or at the least a C (no matter what his speed is) I would pick your spots carefully.

[ 05-26-2002, 06:01 AM: Message edited by: edm ]

OOTP Rocks · 05-26-2002, 02:34 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JML:

OK, I'll try this again...

I once had a 2B with D run speed and A stealing ability. I played nearly every game of 4 seasons with this guy as my leadoff hitter.

I tried to steal with this guy pretty much every time he got on base. Still he would only end up with 35 steals or so each season.

The reason for this was that he would rarely get a good jump to steal. Usually, he would get on, I would hit "steal 2nd" and he would not get a good jump, therefore he wouldn't even attempt a steal.

Does that make sense? He had low speed, so he would rarely get a good jump, therefore he would rarely head for second base. When he did go, however, he was almost always successful, because of his A steal rating.

Think of real life players: If they have committed to stealing a base, they will usually go whether they got a good jump or not. In OOTP, a "good jump" is required before a guy will even take off.[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>I believe this was put in as a regulating mechanism to prevent a potential exploit in the game. You see, when you don't manually manage each game, a player with a higher speed rating will attempt more steals than a player with a lower speed rating. However, what happens if you are manually managing the games, thus instructing each player when to steal or not? What happens then?

I believe the game was originally intended to have guys who try to steal often but get caught alot to have good speed, but bad steal rating. And then players who have low speed but good steal rating to be guys who don't try to steal alot, but get safe on most of the attempts they do make. When you manually manage a game, what happens is, you could potentially turn these players who "don't steal alot, but get safe on most of their attempts", to steal more often. Potentially making these players into explosive stealing machines.

So to regulate this behavior, they made it so that even when you attempt to try to make the player into an extremely frequent stealer, the game doesn't allow you to, by claiming the "player never got a good jump".

[ 05-26-2002, 08:37 AM: Message edited by: OOTP Rocks ]

wireman · 05-26-2002, 03:51 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I always assumed that the speed rating was separate from a players ability to steal bases (in OOTP). Meaning the speed rating was instead the players ability to go from 1st to 3rd, 2nd to home, etc. (basically his skill/speed running the bases).

And that the steal rating was the main or only factor when it came to that players ability to steal bases successfully. For example his ability to get a good jump on the pitcher.

<hr /></blockquote>That's what I always assumed. Generally, I have rarely even attempted to steal unless the runner had an A or a B steal rating and circumstances were at least fairly inviting. Then, I almost always do.

-- Louie

Jon277 · 05-26-2002, 05:58 AM

Base stealing has much more to do with speed. The player has to be good at it and intelligence has somethig to do with it. I think speed determines how fast he is ( to get like extra bases etc.) the steal category has to do witht he ability to read the pitcher and getting good jumps.

Sweed · 05-26-2002, 06:17 AM

according to the manual speed determines the ability to get a jump, and steal the ability to get there safely once you have the jump and are going.

J P Falcon · 05-26-2002, 06:44 AM

Bernie Williams is an excellent example to use with what is being discussed here. He has very good speed and when he needs to go from first to third or second to home, he has the speed to do it easily. However he is not a base stealer. He does not have the instinct and timing needed to steal bases, but that doesn't detract from his overall speed.

wireman · 05-26-2002, 07:43 AM

Well, if we're going to resort to the manual

what it says is:

"Speed = Speed on the bases; also affects ability to get good jumps on steal attempts

Stealing = Ability to steal bases"

So... we're all kind of right, but I don't see where I would change my practice any based on this.

-- Louie

Redhead_Alaskan · 05-26-2002, 07:47 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> <hr /></blockquote>according to the manual speed determines the ability to get a jump, and steal the ability to get there safely once you have the jump and are going.

Sweed just gave it to us straight from the manual

Redhead_Alaskan · 05-26-2002, 07:50 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> according to the manual speed determines the ability to get a jump, and steal the ability to get there safely once you have the jump and are going.
<hr /></blockquote>Let me try this again and excuse that last post(first time trying to quote and I know next to nothing about computers.

Sweed got it straight from the manual

05-24-2002, 10:11 AM	#1
HomieGee Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 69	Speed: A Steal: E One of my players has a speed of A but a stealing ability of E. He is so far 2 for 9 in stealing, which is down right terrible for a person of his speed. Even though he is fast well he ever be a good base stealer or should i just stop trying to steal with him? thanks for you advice

05-24-2002, 01:35 PM	#5
JimboGM Minors (Single A) Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 69	I think it is the other way around JML. This is taken from the scouting report of Eric Byrnes, who has an A in running speed but an E in stealing ability: "He has amazing speed, he just hasn't gotten his timing down as far as being a base stealer." If I am reading this correctly I think this means that Byrnes just cannot get a good jump at all, thus his E rated stealing ability. However once he gets going Byrnes can really fly (and steal bases). So I think players with A speed and E stealing are just faster when running around the bases and in the field, but they can't steal worth crap. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. __________________ The Baseball Classic- St. Paul Apostles http://happybandits.com/ootp/online_leagues/sbc_main/- Geelong Cats http://statsplus.net/cba/- Detroit Motors

05-24-2002, 02:04 PM	#6
IatricSB Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: California Posts: 3,493	I thought it was the opposite. Stealing I thought determined how many times they would attempt and speed would determine how many times they were successful. But I'm not positive. Was thinking of posting this as a question. Any other ideas? __________________ Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow! What a Ride!" Chicago(N) - Boys of Summer Oakland - 20th Century League Bakersfield - Wild Things Brooklyn - QBA Dodge City - NBSL California - ABC Dodger's Senioriest fan on the OOTP Boards

05-24-2002, 02:09 PM	#7
Dargone Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Interwebs Posts: 2,862	I've always thought of it like JimboGm describes. However, it could easily be the other way. Steve or Markus perhaps you could shed some light on this discussion? __________________ I was never one to patiently pick up broken fragments and glue them together again and tell myself that the mended whole was as good as new. What is broken is broken -- and I'd rather remember it as it was at its best than mend it and see the broken places as long as I lived.-Margaret Mitchell

05-24-2002, 10:05 PM	#9
mtw All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 653	I think both ratings are both used to determine frequency of attempts and both ratings determine likelihood of success, but Speed has much more weight in determining how often a player attempts to steal and Steal has much more weight in determining success of a steal attempt. Having tracked this on occasion in my league in several different seasons, a player who is rated speed/steal as A/A will steal more often than a player rated A/E; a player rated E/A will steal more often than a player rated E/E; and a player rated A/E will steal much more often than a player rated E/E (attempted steals of 2nd per time on 1st base with 2nd base open). A/E players are better at stealing bases than E/E players on a % basis, but not by that much, maybe 35% success vs. 25% (this refers to steals of 2nd, not the trailing runner on double steals). __________________ Over-Zealous Apologist

05-24-2002, 10:18 AM	#2
JML Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The act or process of locating. Posts: 2,154	I would stop trying with him. Problem is, the speed rating determines ability to get a jump, and the steal rating says his jumps are terrible. So a player like this will try to steal a ton of bags and fail miserably.

05-24-2002, 10:43 AM	#3
EagleEye_0 All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 1,426	I think JML meant his stealing ability determines his ability to get a jump and not speed.

05-24-2002, 10:48 AM	#4
JML Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The act or process of locating. Posts: 2,154	Nope. I meant speed rating. I'm pretty sure this is correct. A guy with D speed and A stealing will have trouble getting a good jump, but when he does he will steal at a high success rate.

05-24-2002, 05:10 PM	#8
OOTP Rocks Minors (Double A) Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 119	I think you guys are just misinterpreting the wording of what JML is trying to say. What JML is trying to say (in my opinion), is that speed rating determines the probability that the player will attempt to steal. Whereas, stealing ability determines how successful they are in those attempts (success rate). What I think JML meant when he said "ability to get a jump" is the player's ability to "attempt a jump". Obviously the steal rating is represented as the player's timing or instincts when stealing bases (in other words, "how good a jump they get"). As an example, you have Devon White and Rickey Henderson. Devon White was in fact faster than Rickey Henderson (beat him in a race around the diamond), but Devon White just couldn't get his timing down and thus wasn't a very good base stealer. Whereas, Rickey Henderson was the best base stealer ever, not just because he had good speed, but because he was amazing at timing his jumps.

05-25-2002, 06:08 AM	#10
HomieGee Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 69	thanks for your replies...but i'm still kinda fuzzy...we need a WTF emoticon.

05-25-2002, 01:04 PM	#11
JML Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The act or process of locating. Posts: 2,154	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by HomieGee: <strong>thanks for your replies...but i'm still kinda fuzzy...we need a WTF emoticon.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How's this: OK, I'll try this again... I once had a 2B with D run speed and A stealing ability. I played nearly every game of 4 seasons with this guy as my leadoff hitter. I tried to steal with this guy pretty much every time he got on base. Still he would only end up with 35 steals or so each season. The reason for this was that he would rarely get a good jump to steal. Usually, he would get on, I would hit "steal 2nd" and he would not get a good jump, therefore he wouldn't even attempt a steal. Does that make sense? He had low speed, so he would rarely get a good jump, therefore he would rarely head for second base. When he did go, however, he was almost always successful, because of his A steal rating. Think of real life players: If they have committed to stealing a base, they will usually go whether they got a good jump or not. In OOTP, a "good jump" is required before a guy will even take off.

05-25-2002, 11:56 PM	#12
edm All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 1,999	I always assumed that the speed rating was separate from a players ability to steal bases (in OOTP). Meaning the speed rating was instead the players ability to go from 1st to 3rd, 2nd to home, etc. (basically his skill/speed running the bases). And that the steal rating was the main or only factor when it came to that players ability to steal bases successfully. For example his ability to get a good jump on the pitcher. Although JML's theory makes sense as well. Bottom line is, unless your players steal rating is an A, B, or at the least a C (no matter what his speed is) I would pick your spots carefully. <small>[ 05-26-2002, 06:01 AM: Message edited by: edm ]</small>

05-26-2002, 02:34 AM	#13
OOTP Rocks Minors (Double A) Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 119	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by JML: OK, I'll try this again... I once had a 2B with D run speed and A stealing ability. I played nearly every game of 4 seasons with this guy as my leadoff hitter. I tried to steal with this guy pretty much every time he got on base. Still he would only end up with 35 steals or so each season. The reason for this was that he would rarely get a good jump to steal. Usually, he would get on, I would hit "steal 2nd" and he would not get a good jump, therefore he wouldn't even attempt a steal. Does that make sense? He had low speed, so he would rarely get a good jump, therefore he would rarely head for second base. When he did go, however, he was almost always successful, because of his A steal rating. Think of real life players: If they have committed to stealing a base, they will usually go whether they got a good jump or not. In OOTP, a "good jump" is required before a guy will even take off.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe this was put in as a regulating mechanism to prevent a potential exploit in the game. You see, when you don't manually manage each game, a player with a higher speed rating will attempt more steals than a player with a lower speed rating. However, what happens if you are manually managing the games, thus instructing each player when to steal or not? What happens then? I believe the game was originally intended to have guys who try to steal often but get caught alot to have good speed, but bad steal rating. And then players who have low speed but good steal rating to be guys who don't try to steal alot, but get safe on most of the attempts they do make. When you manually manage a game, what happens is, you could potentially turn these players who "don't steal alot, but get safe on most of their attempts", to steal more often. Potentially making these players into explosive stealing machines. So to regulate this behavior, they made it so that even when you attempt to try to make the player into an extremely frequent stealer, the game doesn't allow you to, by claiming the "player never got a good jump". <small>[ 05-26-2002, 08:37 AM: Message edited by: OOTP Rocks ]</small>

05-26-2002, 03:51 AM	#14
wireman All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Harrisonburg VA Posts: 765	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I always assumed that the speed rating was separate from a players ability to steal bases (in OOTP). Meaning the speed rating was instead the players ability to go from 1st to 3rd, 2nd to home, etc. (basically his skill/speed running the bases). And that the steal rating was the main or only factor when it came to that players ability to steal bases successfully. For example his ability to get a good jump on the pitcher. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's what I always assumed. Generally, I have rarely even attempted to steal unless the runner had an A or a B steal rating and circumstances were at least fairly inviting. Then, I almost always do. -- Louie __________________ "Sometimes the magic works and sometimes it doesn't."

05-26-2002, 05:58 AM	#15
Jon277 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 158	Base stealing has much more to do with speed. The player has to be good at it and intelligence has somethig to do with it. I think speed determines how fast he is ( to get like extra bases etc.) the steal category has to do witht he ability to read the pitcher and getting good jumps. __________________ Jon Pass

05-26-2002, 06:44 AM	#17
J P Falcon Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: NJ Posts: 406	Bernie Williams is an excellent example to use with what is being discussed here. He has very good speed and when he needs to go from first to third or second to home, he has the speed to do it easily. However he is not a base stealer. He does not have the instinct and timing needed to steal bases, but that doesn't detract from his overall speed.

05-26-2002, 07:43 AM	#18
wireman All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Harrisonburg VA Posts: 765	Well, if we're going to resort to the manual what it says is: "Speed = Speed on the bases; also affects ability to get good jumps on steal attempts Stealing = Ability to steal bases" So... we're all kind of right, but I don't see where I would change my practice any based on this. -- Louie __________________ "Sometimes the magic works and sometimes it doesn't."

05-26-2002, 07:47 AM	#19
Redhead_Alaskan Minors (Triple A) Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 224	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">according to the manual speed determines the ability to get a jump, and steal the ability to get there safely once you have the jump and are going. Sweed just gave it to us straight from the manual __________________ "Never conform"-Woody Mesa

05-26-2002, 07:50 AM	#20
Redhead_Alaskan Minors (Triple A) Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 224	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> according to the manual speed determines the ability to get a jump, and steal the ability to get there safely once you have the jump and are going. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let me try this again and excuse that last post(first time trying to quote and I know next to nothing about computers. Sweed got it straight from the manual __________________ "Never conform"-Woody Mesa