Balls & Strikes

[BabyLemonade]

I would really like to have the opinion of the more experienced baseball fans.It is the first season that i watched some games & maybe i m out of the spirit but i think of baseball more than any other as the sport of detail:

Game 6 of ALCS bottom of the 7th, count 3-2, runner on 2nd, Scherzer throws a strike and it is given a ball to Bogaerts who walks..Scherzer is taken out of the game and the rest is history..I trully believe that the best team advanced to WS but i cannot help ask myself what would happen if the correct call was given.

Also at game 5 or 6 of the NLCS top of the first and the count to Cardinals leadoff hitter goes 2-0 though it should be 0-2..These small mistakes can alter the outcome of a game and they are not easy to track.(Plus i have seen too many of those during the regular season).

In my opinion balls & strikes should be determined from a computer. I do like the human factor in the game and for sure the home umpire is necessary but this would be the first change i would like to see in MLB.

Just to clarify that i do not find any unfairness to the outcome of both series..The best two teams this season are in the WS and i m looking forward for it.

[DCG12]

Originally Posted by BabyLemonade

I would really like to have the opinion of the more experienced baseball fans.It is the first season that i watched some games & maybe i m out of the spirit but i think of baseball more than any other as the sport of detail:

Game 6 of ALCS bottom of the 7th, count 3-2, runner on 2nd, Scherzer throws a strike and it is given a ball to Bogaerts who walks..Scherzer is taken out of the game and the rest is history..I trully believe that the best team advanced to WS but i cannot help ask myself what would happen if the correct call was given.

Also at game 5 or 6 of the NLCS top of the first and the count to Cardinals leadoff hitter goes 2-0 though it should be 0-2..These small mistakes can alter the outcome of a game and they are not easy to track.(Plus i have seen too many of those during the regular season).

In my opinion balls & strikes should be determined from a computer. I do like the human factor in the game and for sure the home umpire is necessary but this would be the first change i would like to see in MLB.

Just to clarify that i do not find any unfairness to the outcome of both series..The best two teams this season are in the WS and i m looking forward for it.

It is no different than any other sport. Officials make decisions every minute that can effect outcomes. In basketball foul calls/no calls are made on every possession. In football (soccer) a player goes down in the box, was he fouled for a penalty kick or did he flop and we play on. American football did that lineman hold on that game tying TD or does the official let it go.

Easy to focus on one pitch but I don't believe that the various pitch trackers that tv uses are completely accurate nor do they give you the view the umpire had of the pitch.

Last of all please no robots calling balls and strikes ever

[Questdog]

No robots; no replay.......

Bad umpire calls are just like bad hops.......

[RchW]

Originally Posted by Questdog

No robots; no replay.......

Bad umpire calls are just like bad hops.......

Bad hops don't come with bias. Balls and strikes often do. It's not even the number of bad calls it is the occurrence during certain high leverage game situations that can force a critical decision onto one team. That's a huge strategic advantage. If one team consistently gets that advantage it brings the game into disrepute.

FWIW I stopped watching basketball because of blatant referee bias. Baseball is getting close to that level IMO.

See this analysis from Close Call Sports

I have no issue with Boston and St. Louis winning but it was pretty obvious just by observing that both of them benefited from critical calls or non-calls on balls and strikes. The data below certainly supports it.

Both St. Louis and Boston could have won without this advantage and each series would have been much better for it.

Forum: American, National League Championship Series
As the 2013 AL and NL Championship Series get underway, we again open the umpire forum to discussion. Notes include home plate umpire performance according to pitch f/x and UEFL Rules 6-2-b-a (horizontal bound, "Kulpa Rule") and 6-2-b-b (vertical strike zone, "Miller Rule"). Plays include significant plays, if such plays occur. For future games, notes include home plate umpire probables. Call +/- also included/highlighted.

- 10/11, LAD@STL 1: HP Umpire Gerry Davis: pfx (148/156 Balls, 51/62 Strikes = 199/218 = 91.3%) +1 STL.

- 10/12, LAD@STL 2: HP Umpire Mark Carlson: pfx (81/87 Balls, 36/45 Strikes = 117/132 = <90.0%) +6 STL.
- 10/12, DET@BOS 1: HP Umpire Joe West: pfx (110/115 Balls, 46/52 Strikes = 156/167 = 93.4%) +1 BOS.

- 10/13, DET@BOS 2: HP Umpire Rob Drake: pfx (90/95 Balls, 36/42 Strikes = 126/137 = 92.0%) +2 BOS.

- 10/14, STL@LAD 3: HP Umpire Mike Everitt: pfx (80/84 Balls, 42/46 Strikes = 122/130 = 93.8%) +3 STL.

- 10/15, BOS@DET 3: HP Umpire Ron Kulpa: pfx (83/83 Balls, 40/46 Strikes = 123/129 = 95.3%) +4 BOS.
- 10/15, STL@LAD 4: HP Umpire Bruce Dreckman: pfx (102/108 B, 47/49 S = 149/157 = 94.9%) +4 STL.

- 10/16, STL@LAD 5: HP Umpire Ted Barrett: pfx (93/94 Balls, 50/53 Strikes = 143/147 = 97.3%) +1 STL.
- 10/16, BOS@DET 4: HP Umpire Alfonso Marquez: pfx (100/105 B, 46/54 S = 146/159 = 91.8%) +4 BOS.

- 10/17, BOS@DET 5: HP Umpire Dale Scott: pfx (111/113 Balls, 45/50 Strikes = 156/163 = 95.7%) +3 DET.

- 10/18, LAD@STL 6: HP Umpire Greg Gibson: pfx (100/107 B, 40/46 S = 140/153 = 91.5%) +5 STL.
Series Complete: NLCS Cardinals defeat Dodgers (4-2), net advantage St. Louis, +20 pitches (won series).

- 10/19, DET@BOS 6: HP Umpire Dan Iassogna: pfx (84/88 Balls, 48/53 Strikes = 132/141 = 93.6%) +4 BOS.
Series Complete: ALCS Red Sox defeat Tigers (4-2), net advantage Boston, +12 pitches (won series)

[BabyLemonade]

Thanks a lot RchW for the information, i did not even know that this kind of analysis existed-!! Also i had the idea that all the pitch trackers that tv uses were correct beyond doubt but i guess i was wrong with that.

Agree about basketball. Having watched many games of Euroleague over the years it is pretty obvious that if referees want to give advantage to one team they allow more contact.(And it happens quite often).
In soccer it is easier to observe a bad call after the first replay.
Baseball is much more detailed and the home plate umpires have very difficult task to handle.

[BoSoxFan]

Maybe they should give umps google glasses with the strike zone highlighted for them to help them make the right call.

[Questdog]

I don't think MLB umps intentionally favor one team over another......and as stated the machines are not perfect either, so the discrepancy noted is not with reality but with the machines.......

But it does not matter if the machines were proven to be perfect, they would still have no place in the pastoral game of baseball. Baseball is chock full of things that are not fair. If you want the better team to be assured of a win every time, then we should eschew the games altogether and just measure the players' attributes and grant the victory to them team with the most impressive roster.

Bad calls, bad hops, players tripping over the bags, balls lost in the sun, seeing eye singles, etc. are all essential to creating the drama and also help make baseball the most democratic of games.

[Fyrestorm3]

Originally Posted by Questdog

I don't think MLB umps intentionally favor one team over another......and as stated the machines are not perfect either, so the discrepancy noted is not with reality but with the machines.......

But it does not matter if the machines were proven to be perfect, they would still have no place in the pastoral game of baseball. Baseball is chock full of things that are not fair. If you want the better team to be assured of a win every time, then we should eschew the games altogether and just measure the players' attributes and grant the victory to them team with the most impressive roster.

Bad calls, bad hops, players tripping over the bags, balls lost in the sun, seeing eye singles, etc. are all essential to creating the drama and also help make baseball the most democratic of games.

This.

If you want precision and pinpoint calls, watch American football. That's how it works there, and that's how it should work. But not in baseball. Reviews and replays have very little place in baseball, in my opinion.

Besides, it's more fun to get mad at the umps, anyway.

[BoSoxFan]

Originally Posted by Questdog

I don't think MLB umps intentionally favor one team over another......and as stated the machines are not perfect either, so the discrepancy noted is not with reality but with the machines.......

But it does not matter if the machines were proven to be perfect, they would still have no place in the pastoral game of baseball. Baseball is chock full of things that are not fair. If you want the better team to be assured of a win every time, then we should eschew the games altogether and just measure the players' attributes and grant the victory to them team with the most impressive roster.

Bad calls, bad hops, players tripping over the bags, balls lost in the sun, seeing eye singles, etc. are all essential to creating the drama and also help make baseball the most democratic of games.

The difference between the "unlucky" things you stated above is that there are ways that we can fix bad calls and make them right. You don't have tochange the game all too much to find some remedies for those- one of the better things they can do is to not let the CB Bucknors of the world from getting anywhere near the Major Leagues, much less the playoffs. How many of the bad calls that you hear about are from umpires who make those kinds of calls routinely? We're already taking a step in the right direction with instant replay, but I think it's the particularly bad umps that are at fault here. Remember, there have been lots of times where the umpires either could or did look at instant replay, and they STILL made the wrong call.

[Questdog]

You're looking for justice in a game where there is very little and getting this little bit (umpires calls) to be absolutely just is pointless, since it won't alter the overall justice of the system one whit. But it WILL take some of the poetry from the game and poetry is more important than justice in the grand scheme of the universe.

[BabyLemonade]

Originally Posted by Questdog

You're looking for justice in a game where there is very little and getting this little bit (umpires calls) to be absolutely just is pointless, since it won't alter the overall justice of the system one whit. But it WILL take some of the poetry from the game and poetry is more important than justice in the grand scheme of the universe.

To paraphrase Dr. King "Injustice anywhere is a threat to poetry everywhere".

Understanding though your point of viewing baseball. I almost share it

And for what it counts if there is no intention of favouring one team over another it is not really a problem.

[Splitter24]

You can take it or leave it because I'm a Red Sox fan. But it's kind of hard to fault the umpire on that one. Avila sets up inside, the umpire sets up inside. Avila reaches outside across the plate to catch the ball, pretty much obstructing the umpire's view of the outside corner.

As a former pitcher, it's always good practice that if you're trying to hit a corner, make sure it's the one you're aiming for if you want the call. :twocents:

[BoSoxFan]

Originally Posted by Questdog

I don't think MLB umps intentionally favor one team over another......and as stated the machines are not perfect either, so the discrepancy noted is not with reality but with the machines.......

But it does not matter if the machines were proven to be perfect, they would still have no place in the pastoral game of baseball. Baseball is chock full of things that are not fair. If you want the better team to be assured of a win every time, then we should eschew the games altogether and just measure the players' attributes and grant the victory to them team with the most impressive roster.

Bad calls, bad hops, players tripping over the bags, balls lost in the sun, seeing eye singles, etc. are all essential to creating the drama and also help make baseball the most democratic of games.

I want the team who plays better to be awarded the win every time, not the team that looks better on paper to win every time. Key difference.

[BoSoxFan]

Also, if you want to go down the slippery slope route, then why don't you just have 5 year olds be umpires? I mean, there are some calls that have been so ridiculous that a 5 year old who knows the rules would be able to get them right, so why not? What, you actually want the team who plays better to win, and not the team who gets calls by some umpire who doesn't know what he's doing?

[BoSoxFan]

And btw, I'm not sure if that was actually a strike.

[TGH-Adfabre]

I am not sold that the robots are ready to take over behind the plate. My concern has always been...
How will the programers take into account the changes in the Strike Zone from one batter to another and as a batter adjusts his stance. The strike zone is not static from batter to batter. It is also not static within one players career.

I do look forward to the day the robots can rule balls and strikes. I am not convinced we are there yet. I Googled "Pitch fx strike zone adjustment" and was unimpressed that I did not see an explanation from Sports Visions website. I may have missed it, if anyone knows where it is I would like to read it.

This came up from Baseball Prospectus.

Baseball Prospectus | Spinning Yarn: The Real Strike Zone, Part 2

It is 2 years old so the issues may be competely resolved at this point, I am not sure.

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by BoSoxFan

Also, if you want to go down the slippery slope route, then why don't you just have 5 year olds be umpires? I mean, there are some calls that have been so ridiculous that a 5 year old who knows the rules would be able to get them right, so why not? What, you actually want the team who plays better to win, and not the team who gets calls by some umpire who doesn't know what he's doing?

Of course, I don't WANT bad calls; I just want humans being in charge and I am willing to accept less than perfection to insure it stays that way.

What's the worst call of the last 10 years? To me it had to be when the perfect game was lost on a bum call. But looking at baseball as a drama, the actual outcome was a more memorable story than if the call was made correctly.