Alpha vs. Beta

[mking55]

Preamble:
This is not to "bash" the coming product. This is just my personal observation on what is being called the "beta" version of FHM. Never in my life of playing games have I anticipated a game as much as this one. To some people going back in your mind to being a kid, you have loads of baseball memories. For me, as for many Canadians, it's hockey. I really do want this game to work and eagerly anticipate the day when it's ready.

The meat:
I don't think that what I've bought into is a "beta version" of the game. A beta version is usually feature complete and is put into testing to debug it. The game should function at least at the basic level This one doesn't. You can't make it through a season without lots of errors popping up.

An alpha release is usually testing when the first version of the software, warts and all, is finished (most, if not all of the features). You should expect bugs and crashes and all sorts of nastiness which is fine and normal.

I don't think that a beta test should expect all sorts of crashes and nastiness. You will get some, but at least at some basic level it should work. That means the draft works every season, the point totals add up, the free agency works, when you play out a game there is a fast forward so you can zoom to the end of a period or the game. I could go on but you get the idea.

I think in their hurry to disappoint as few people as possible they rushed out this alpha version, calling it open testing beta. I love open testing. I think you have the best chance of catching as many problems as possible. But so many of the problems that are occurring happen during the basic running of a season. I feel these things should be working and not occurring during the beta testing phase.

I think that the developers should have waited until it was beta before releasing a "beta version" of the game. I do not think it was fair to either them or me to give me an alpha version of the game. There are too many features missing and too many bugs in the basic game.

Am I bashing the game? No I'm not. It's not finished yet. It's not even close to finished. Am I asking for my money back? No I'm not. I just wish that I knew it was a far from finished alpha version of the game I bought.

Please don't "flame" me for having an opinion. As I said, I want this to work as it's the game I've always wanted. It's the only way the Maple Laffs will ever win the Stanley Cup again.

There was obviously no way the game could have been made ready in the time frame they originally thought in their original estimate. I think it will be hard to be ready for their new projected release date but naturally I hope I'm wrong. The game, in my opinion, is not ready to play at any level. I was not expecting perfection, I was expecting a beta version and all that comes with it. I think what I got wasn't even an alpha version.

So, what entitles me to say this? A couple of things the first of which is my right to "free speech". The second thing is 20+ years of experience writing software (business software) and going through this stuff.

I wish the developers all the best and I hope that they are honest with themselves and their customers in the future. I really think if they would have waited a few months until it was really beta before a beta release wouldn't have hurt anyone. It's just a game and as it is often said, it will be ready when it's ready. That, although we users don't like to hear that, is the way it should be.

This is just my viewpoint and I felt the need to get this off my chest as I'm bothered by this "beta version". This does not diminish in any way my anticipation of the future and I look forward to the day when George Armstrong lifts the cup up over and over again. And yes, in 1964 George Armstrong was the captain of the Leafs (1958-1969) and not Dave Keon (1969-1975).

[herzkine]

Whil i totally agreee with you in principle, i also have to say i have seen games in this unfinished state sold by major publishers as finished product, so we shouldnt nitpick to much i guess. We were todl we are getting an unfinished product thats what counts in the end, and developers should concentrate on maiing the game bette rnow instead of thinking about if they named it right.

[Bluenoser]

No flaming for the opinion, fully respect it.

Two points:

1. Does it really matter what it's called right now?

2. By doing it this way, the end result will be a much more stable and playable game when the actual release does come. This, imo, benefits everybody interested in this game, both developer and user.


I do not, however, care for this comment - "In their hurry to disappoint as few people as possible". Neither you nor I know that was their reason for going this route, but I highly doubt it. I'd lean more towards the reason being is for getting as much testing from as many people as possible.

There are great hockey minds on the dev team. There are great hockey minds on these forums among the users. It only makes sense to use that knowledge to your advantage.


At the end of the day, whether it's called pre-alpha, alpha, beta, or whatever, it's not misleading imo, and it makes the most sense to go this route.

[Walsh06]

If its being publicly tested then it's in beta. That's pretty much it.

[BabyLemonade]

Generally speaking & from my point of view OOTP Dev. is honest with it's customers..I only play ootp baseball for 3yrs and i have notice that the developers are trying with every version to make their product better. The high standards of this forum is kind of proof that there is a lot of mutual respect between the company and it's customers.

But reading all these threads about FHM i have to admit that though i bought the game from day 1 i have not even tried to download it..I prefer to wait a few months and have a playable version than to encounter all these problems. After all i m having a great time playing ootp13.

At the end i m pretty sure that the game will live up to your expectations.

[tomwolf2008]

Not to bashing on anyone's opinion, but there is a reason that such thread exist:
http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...at-expect.html


So I think development team is very upfront and honest regarding what product they put it out.

[Stinson]

If I had to make the call, I agree with you... I think I would have considered this an alpha. However, I don't think it really matters what they call it, for a couple reasons:

One, the average gamer has enough trouble knowing what an alpha or beta is in the first place, let alone what the technical differences are between the two. All they really need to know is whether the game is a finished product or not, and I don't think the OOTP team could have been any more open about that than they have been.

And second, this beta is free. I know, we all just spent $29.99, but that was for the finished game coming out in September. The beta is just a free bonus for those faithful supporters. I guess one could say they spent $30 for the beta, and the final game will be free, but that's up to them. Personally, I'd rather say I spent $30 on a finished game, while the buggy beta was a gift

EDIT: By the way, I really can't help myself from asking... BabyLemonade, please tell me you're a Syd Barrett fan?

[BabyLemonade]

That is why i chose this name
Great notice.

[JeffR]

Originally Posted by tomwolf2008

Not to bashing on anyone's opinion, but there is a reason that such thread exist:
http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...at-expect.html


So I think development team is very upfront and honest regarding what product they put it out.

And that about sums up my response. I don't think I've fallen short in my efforts to inform people about the state of the game. No one reading this forum should have any difficulty coming to an understanding of exactly how the game is working at the moment. To quote myself from the linked post:

Bottom line: if you're planning on pre-ordering and expect to be playing a smooth, fully-featured, bug-free version of the game on Monday, you're not going to be happy with what you get. It's a beta, and betas crash and frustrate and confuse and break, and have ugly things like missing graphics and debugging tags in the text.

Someone may have the opinion that a beta version shouldn't have "crashes and nastiness," but when I've specifically told them in advance that it does, I hardly think that's grounds for questioning my honesty.

The semantics over whether or not it should be called "alpha" or "beta" is, really, secondary to the point of whether or not we're informing our customers properly. That said, I've worked on and playtested many games over the years and FHM certainly doesn't stand out as being unusually incomplete for a beta. I saw the beta version of the first EHM months before its release, and its stability and bugginess wasn't particularly different from how FHM looks now (and we're farther ahead in some significant aspects).

And I'd like to thank everybody for responding with restraint to the original post. This is a lot closer to what I'd like to see when someone has a dissenting opinion about the game.

[mgom27]

Know if we could stop having Exits happening in Beta by the Computer for some unknown reason then we could try the Game out and go along time.

[fireholder]

For the record, there is no such thing as "free speech" when you're in (or on) a privately-owned space.

I know it's not your main point, but if OOTP wanted to remove your post they could, and be entirely within their rights to do so. Free speech has nothing to do with this place.

[dave1927p]

yes, i agree that it is more like an alpha and i do agree that we were told what to expect so it shouldn't come as a surprise. Wording doesn't really matter.

I just wish that they get the history of leagues and players working right and fully enabled soon because i really find it difficult to play beyond one year without it.

What's the point if all is forgotten?

[Anemic_royaltea]

Semantic disagreement, essentially.

I personally have issue with things being offered and identified as 'public alpha,' though I suppose that's a way of identifying just how 'raw' the product is.

I'd say being offered for 'community-testing' is a 'beta' property, not something that happens in the alpha stage, and I'd also say that the FHM we've got right now is pretty well a beta. Lots is changing and being added, but there's not going to be a complete overhaul of the engine or re-shaping of the fundamental design.

A developer can scrap an Alpha and start over, or make massive changes. FHM's development cycle going forward through the summer is going to be incremental improvements. That says 'Beta' to me.

- On another note, I clearly haven't had as many stability problems as OP and others... luck?

[yzerwing]

Originally Posted by tomwolf2008

Not to bashing on anyone's opinion, but there is a reason that such thread exist:
http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...at-expect.html


So I think development team is very upfront and honest regarding what product they put it out.

Couldn't agree more with this. Jeff R couldn't have been more open, as to what to expect, so the only one to blame for being disappointed is anyone who bought it, without reading the what to expect thread.

[Le Grande Orange]

I'd just point out that no one is obligated or otherwise required to download or play the current version of the game. A person could easily just sit back and wait until September and download the release version and play that if they feel the typical issues found in a beta/pre-release version bothers them.

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

I'd just point out that no one is obligated or otherwise required to download or play the current version of the game. A person could easily just sit back and wait until September and download the release version and play that if they feel the typical issues found in a beta/pre-release version bothers them.

"

This

And your post is perfectly valid. But we were all told exactly what we were getting. A game that is 7 months early and largely incomplete and in some ways broken.

I would also like to point out that public beta testing is good since it is largely free but is not as effective as professional beta testing.
I had the pleasure of interacting with a professional beta tester a few years ago on a gaming companies forum and it was interesting. It is definitly a skill and one that is learned. If you are a large gaming company then you can afford to pay professional beta testers to test your product.
She told some enlightening stories from inside the industry.
She said the biggest difference between public beta testers and professional beta testers is that public beta testers for the most part get the game and then proceed to 'play' the game as they would if it was the final release.
Professional testers have a methodology and a set routine they use. They don't play the game for fun. They run the games through a series of very precise and largely boring tests.
They are also assigned parts of the game and the entire testing is organized. She said for one RPG she tested that she spent 20+ hours simply moving items around in the inventory and between various characters and NPC trying to break the game and make it crash.
She said it was extremely boring and at times mind numbing but it was her job and it is how your break into the industry fresh out of university.


So what I am ultimately trying to say is that at this point the game is not really meant to be played in a normal manner or even to be enjoyed.
You paid for it, so far be it for me to try and try and tell you how to play it.

But at this point less effort needs to go into playing the game and more effort needs to go into try all manner of weird stuff to try and 'break the game'. The more stuff we find the better the final product will be.

[maxkeitt]

It's a pre-release version.

It feels more alpha than beta, but so what?

The devs were completely honest and up front about what we were getting.

I'm completely satisfied.

[Walsh06]

Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich

"

This

And your post is perfectly valid. But we were all told exactly what we were getting. A game that is 7 months early and largely incomplete and in some ways broken.

I would also like to point out that public beta testing is good since it is largely free but is not as effective as professional beta testing.
I had the pleasure of interacting with a professional beta tester a few years ago on a gaming companies forum and it was interesting. It is definitly a skill and one that is learned. If you are a large gaming company then you can afford to pay professional beta testers to test your product.
She told some enlightening stories from inside the industry.
She said the biggest difference between public beta testers and professional beta testers is that public beta testers for the most part get the game and then proceed to 'play' the game as they would if it was the final release.
Professional testers have a methodology and a set routine they use. They don't play the game for fun. They run the games through a series of very precise and largely boring tests.
They are also assigned parts of the game and the entire testing is organized. She said for one RPG she tested that she spent 20+ hours simply moving items around in the inventory and between various characters and NPC trying to break the game and make it crash.
She said it was extremely boring and at times mind numbing but it was her job and it is how your break into the industry fresh out of university.


So what I am ultimately trying to say is that at this point the game is not really meant to be played in a normal manner or even to be enjoyed.
You paid for it, so far be it for me to try and try and tell you how to play it.

But at this point less effort needs to go into playing the game and more effort needs to go into try all manner of weird stuff to try and 'break the game'. The more stuff we find the better the final product will be.

That sounds all too familiar to me from my Software Testing Module but I would disagree slightly. If you get into testing from University theres a very high chance you wont get out of it. And if you really want to be in development then you can really screw yourself over from doing so.

[umwoz]

The term beta or alpha has nothing to do with what is included feature wise. Beta simply means it's being tested by people outside of the production team.

[tcblcommish]

The whole term Alpha and Beta means very little when the community understands what they are getting and the reasoning for the product the way that it is.

FHM and for that matter Ootp have pretty much always been straight up and honest as far as I know and I have never had any reasons to doubt them in their sincerity of the posts and whatever they have been doing. This game is what it is, buggy and still not really ready for release of course but we all knew that. We were told before purchasing that it was like that and we were going to be "beta" testers which the majority of people were fine with.

To be honest with you, I don't really understand the point of this thread but it is what it is