pitcher learning a new pitch fielder learning a new position my take on this and suggestion

[soadeathdealer]

i know you touched on this Markus in post 34 of the OOTP 13 - Discussion of the new Features & Screenshots.... but in 13 are we gonna be able to in like spring training or during the season (pretty much anytime) if a pitchers is on the same staff as a pitcher with different pitches are we gonna be able to like select in a drop down box in the pitcher profile what pitch we want out pitcher to learn and from who on the staff and how long we want them to invest in learning it and have that weight on there performance during the season or spring training and in the end have them learning that pitch based on the pitcher they learned it from + time spent+Pitching coach(if used) + playing time = the pitcher rating if he gets the new pitch?

i think the same concept could be used for fielders when learning a new position too.


i know coding maybe a bit more but i think it would be a good investment


i understand Markus saying that pitcher could learn a new pitch in 12 but its so random and so so far apart its not very good , and i dont like it all being random . i mean in about 10 season in a total of 4 leagues no pitcher has learned a new pitch in my leagues . i know he said 13 is a bit different and should be better but i like the way i have explained about it gives the gm more control over who has a chance to learn a new pitch and who from . I just think the AI for 12 that decides by random who learns a new pitch is off/flawed and ive never seen a pitcher learn a new pitch in 12 and ive player like 10 seasons online , so i think it will be flawed if it is done the way it is and i think giving the gm control as i have stated in the about would be so much better, i mean with the way i have explained in the above it would have a calculated randomness to it but more focused and not totally random theres more factors that determine if the pitch is learned and how good it will be . its something Markus and Co should consider if its not in 13 .

[soadeathdealer]

interested in other people thoughts on this

[soadeathdealer]

Bumped to get other OOTP'ers thoughts on this

[joeyjojojrshabadoo]

I would certainly love this as an option. I fully agree that learning a new pitch is too random. I have also yet to see it happen. I think there should definitely be a little more control over player development than there already is. I also like the idea of working with a fielder. While i don't see range as something that can really be improved on, I think the amount of errors a fielder makes could be improved while working with a coach. Or better fielding decision making. I think the involvement of coaches in this way would make them more part of the game and more useful. I'm not sure right now what impact they have on a team.

[Cinnamon J. Scudworth]

The main issue I have with the kind of model being proposed here is that it's not very strategic. I mean, if it's basically "free" to teach pitchers a new pitch, and the only issue is time and how effective the pitch turns out, you might as well teach all of your pitchers as many new pitches as possible. Some thought need to be given about how to implement such a thing so that there are legitimate trade-offs that a GM must weigh.

[gentlemanofleisure]

Pitchers learning a new pitch happens a lot in real life and there are many famous cases. Mike Scott learning the Split-finger fasterball from Roger Criag saved his career. Ron Guidry learning the slider from Sparky Lyle made Guidry the star he was.Then later on Guidry taught the Slider to Dave Righetti who taught the slider to Al Leiter.

Sometimes learning a new pitch can also be a bad thing. Mel Stottelmyer taught Dwight Gooden a changup in 1986 which hurt his release point and thus his blazing fastball and unhitable curve ball werent as effective as they were in 1985.

[joeyjojojrshabadoo]

Originally Posted by Cinnamon J. Scudworth

The main issue I have with the kind of model being proposed here is that it's not very strategic. I mean, if it's basically "free" to teach pitchers a new pitch, and the only issue is time and how effective the pitch turns out, you might as well teach all of your pitchers as many new pitches as possible. Some thought need to be given about how to implement such a thing so that there are legitimate trade-offs that a GM must weigh.

I think this could be implemented to a limit. I agree that if its free you can easily just create a team of superstars. If there were some way to implement experience points. Like a pitcher has only a limited amount xp to use in order to develop that pitch. Also, another way to keep it balanced is to add the time element. Like he can only learn that pitch in spring training. Or I'm sure this is a long shot but if you can work certain specs out in another league. Like sending them to a winter league or the AZL like in real life so they get more experience and hone their skills. I'd really like for a GM to be more involved in player development but i do agree that some limits must be in place in order for there not to be super teams.

[Icy]

One way to implement this would be using some kind of "mentorship" like Fooball Manager has, where veterans can teach and help the young players development, IE a veteran pitcher teaching a young pitcher an extra pitch.

That way we have another reason to keep veterans in our team even when their production starts to go down.

[Cinnamon J. Scudworth]

Originally Posted by joeyjojojrshabadoo

I think this could be implemented to a limit. I agree that if its free you can easily just create a team of superstars. If there were some way to implement experience points. Like a pitcher has only a limited amount xp to use in order to develop that pitch. Also, another way to keep it balanced is to add the time element. Like he can only learn that pitch in spring training. Or I'm sure this is a long shot but if you can work certain specs out in another league. Like sending them to a winter league or the AZL like in real life so they get more experience and hone their skills. I'd really like for a GM to be more involved in player development but i do agree that some limits must be in place in order for there not to be super teams.

In addition to all of that, maybe there could be some non-trivial risk that by teaching him a new pitch, the ratings on his other pitches might actually decrease in a significant way. I'm thinking of cases like Mike Pelfrey, who has spent the last couple of years trying to find a complementary pitch to his sinker (his primarily pitch that make him successful in the first place) with the result being that his sinker, his bread and butter, has become less effective, many believe.

It's not so much that I'm worried about it being too easy to create superstars, since I'm assuming that the success rate of teaching new pitches would be moderated to limit that to the extent possible. It's mostly that I fear this kind of thing becoming just more busy-work, kind of like XP grinding in a role-playing game. If the game is to include this kind of feature, it should require the player to use some strategy to decide which players should try to develop new pitches, and how much time/resources to spend on doing it.

[DrSatan]

I like the idea of pitchers learning new pitches, and some of the ideas on how to do it are really good. I would like to see it involve the coaches more. It would be cool to get a message from my pitching coach telling me a pitcher is really coming along with a new pitch, and should be considered for a rotation spot, or an email saying we've been wasting our time.

The trick is to make it work without building super teams. To me it would have to involve intelligence and work ethic ratings, coach ratings, and development $'s. I think all those factors together could work in the "dice roll" to see if a pitch was learned or not. I imagine this could work for learning new positions as well.

At least it would put some tangible value towards playing with coaches on.

[gentlemanofleisure]

One thing I never got was a pitcher who would throw only a curve-ball and change up yet his velocity is around 99-101. If he can throw a 99mph curve ball then I would think he would have a good fastball too, no?

[tejdog1]

Every pitcher in the game has a fastball. That's by default, that's the velocity you see there.

As for success stories, Ricky Bones taught Jon Niese how to throw a cutter, that's partially responsible for Niese becoming a legit #2/#3 starter (by advanced metrics)`

[soadeathdealer]

Not every pitcher in OOTP throws a fastball and if they did that wouldnt be realistic . but if ur meaning speed wise he throws fast but just throws like curve or slider , something like that i could understand the logic . but the reality is some pitchers just throw knuckle balls and changes ups and have no need for a fastball .

Originally Posted by tejdog1

Every pitcher in the game has a fastball. That's by default, that's the velocity you see there.

As for success stories, Ricky Bones taught Jon Niese how to throw a cutter, that's partially responsible for Niese becoming a legit #2/#3 starter (by advanced metrics)`

[soadeathdealer]

yea intelligence and work ethic ratings, coach ratings, and development $'s. would have to be in play but i think us as gms should have the ablity to like goto a players profile and tell him to work with this coach and or pitcher on this pitch or pitches this amount of the day for this many days and im sure they might have games during that time and have that wear on him and also for the player have the control ,work ethic,intelligence , coach or player teaching , the amount of time being taught and the amount of games hes playing in during the learning time all effect if he learns the pitch and what the pitch rating is

Originally Posted by DrSatan

I like the idea of pitchers learning new pitches, and some of the ideas on how to do it are really good. I would like to see it involve the coaches more. It would be cool to get a message from my pitching coach telling me a pitcher is really coming along with a new pitch, and should be considered for a rotation spot, or an email saying we've been wasting our time.

The trick is to make it work without building super teams. To me it would have to involve intelligence and work ethic ratings, coach ratings, and development $'s. I think all those factors together could work in the "dice roll" to see if a pitch was learned or not. I imagine this could work for learning new positions as well.

At least it would put some tangible value towards playing with coaches on.

[soadeathdealer]

I really hope this feature gets added to the game this version or next i think it would be a new feature to have and gms another tool to work with and it wouldn't be so total random that a pitcher learns a pitch we would have some control over it and of course not all pitchers that try to learn a new pitch will learn it that's why personality would have to come into play to

[Markus Heinsohn]

Well, the new storylines will trigger stuff like players learning a new pitch. However, you will not be able to go ahead and simply pick a player and tell him to work on a pitch... such a system could be exploited too easily. Same with learning a new postion.

[soadeathdealer]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Well, the new storylines will trigger stuff like players learning a new pitch. However, you will not be able to go ahead and simply pick a player and tell him to work on a pitch... such a system could be exploited too easily. Same with learning a new postion.

couldn't you code something to stop the exploits from happening so easily by that i mean like allow it to a point but set limits on it for now until u can implement it to its full potential without it being exploited to easily ?

[statfreak]

Originally Posted by soadeathdealer

I really hope this feature gets added to the game this version or next i think it would be a new feature to have and gms another tool to work with and it wouldn't be so total random that a pitcher learns a pitch we would have some control over it and of course not all pitchers that try to learn a new pitch will learn it that's why personality would have to come into play to

No, don't want to see this in OOTP again. Back in OOTP 6.5 and earlier you could do this type of thing in Spring Training and it really took a lot of enjoyment out of the game as it was relatively easy to turn a great reliever into a good/great starter and easily give a player a position. I much prefer the way it is now where it is random. Infinitely more realistic and keeps the league balance.

If this was implemented, it would be so abused it won't even be worth playing in online leagues anymore and would destroy leagues as people would turn all the great relievers into starters. And it is just not realistic.

As it is now, you can "assume" all pitchers are working on learning new pitchers so there is no need to "teach" them since they, by default, are already trying to learn.

Besides, OOTP 13 has Improved pitcher creation & development (per the newsletter). OOTP 13 creates fewer pure relievers for the draft. More pitchers are generated with the potential to become starters. Not all pitchers will capitalize on their potential, though; failure to develop an off-speed pitch or build stamina may necessitate a move to the pen.

If this feature is implemented well, there would be no need for the system soadeathdealer suggests.

[statfreak]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Well, the new storylines will trigger stuff like players learning a new pitch. However, you will not be able to go ahead and simply pick a player and tell him to work on a pitch... such a system could be exploited too easily. Same with learning a new postion.

Originally Posted by soadeathdealer

couldn't you code something to stop the exploits from happening so easily by that i mean like allow it to a point but set limits on it for now until u can implement it to its full potential without it being exploited to easily ?

Completely agree with Markus.

The editor is there for exactly this kind of thing. Create a table/chart/spreadsheet and "roll" against it to determine success, then go into the editor and make the change.

Having it in-game just begs for it to be exploited and could have disastrous results on competitive balance (thinking mostly of online leagues, but applies to solo leagues as well).

[soadeathdealer]

i disagree if the system i suggest can be implemented or half implemented without having it exploited it would great to have and it would be realstic as in real life its not random has it is in the game you don't see pitchers in real life just all of a sudden have a new pitch they practice it and they learn it from someone . not maybe this system can be put fully into place until it can be coded so no one can exploit it in the way that is suggested but i think it would be great feature to have and as i suggested not all would learn the new pitches or positions that would be random to a point but based of many factors that you as a gm wouldn't be able to exploit so easily unless u were a commish . by having different factor involved that a gm cant change then you don't have this exploited as easily as its not set in stone that if u try to teach a new pitch or position that they will learn it

Originally Posted by statfreak

No, don't want to see this in OOTP again. Back in OOTP 6.5 and earlier you could do this type of thing in Spring Training and it really took a lot of enjoyment out of the game as it was relatively easy to turn a great reliever into a good/great starter and easily give a player a position. I much prefer the way it is now where it is random. Infinitely more realistic and keeps the league balance.

If this was implemented, it would be so abused it won't even be worth playing in online leagues anymore and would destroy leagues as people would turn all the great relievers into starters. And it is just not realistic.

As it is now, you can "assume" all pitchers are working on learning new pitchers so there is no need to "teach" them since they, by default, are already trying to learn.

Besides, OOTP 13 has Improved pitcher creation & development (per the newsletter). OOTP 13 creates fewer pure relievers for the draft. More pitchers are generated with the potential to become starters. Not all pitchers will capitalize on their potential, though; failure to develop an off-speed pitch or build stamina may necessitate a move to the pen.

If this feature is implemented well, there would be no need for the system soadeathdealer suggests.