OOTP 12 Deviations From Reality, Mistakes and Questions

[simcrazy]

Here are my initial observations from OOTP 12 (~12 hours game play). Taking suggestions from the other thread, I have categorized the observations:

DEVIATIONS FROM REALITY (most serious):

• If a defensive player or pitcher gets injured on the last pitch of a half inning, you must immediately replace him. In real life, you wouldn’t have to identify the replacement until the next inning where the defensive player or pitcher is required.
• Spring training games are not realistic – only guys from the 40 man roster appear to be used.
• Cannot put the DH in the field.
• If there are two pinch runners in a half inning, and one is for the DH, the runner pinch running for the DH is allowed to assume a defensive position. This should not be allowed.
• It is possible to take out a pitcher before he has completed an at-bat. This is a deviation from reality, as this is only allowed in real life in the case of injury.

MISTAKES (less serious):

• The second pinch runner in a half inning is recorded in the box score as a pinch hitter, not a pinch runner as would be correct.
• When there are runners on base, the bunt for a hit option is not available.

QUESTIONS (input appreciated):

• Why do so many pitchers listed as starters have poor stamina? Will they get tired before a typical starter workload, i.e. ~90 pitches?
• Is there a way to undo an in-game move? An out-of-game (e.g. roster transaction) move? Is there a way to restore to a previous date when you don’t have a backup for that exact date? If so, please explain how to do these things.

[Qwerty75]

Responses to your questions:

1) The Stamina threshold for a pitcher to be able to throw the number of pitches required of a starter in outing before getting tired is 50/200 or 25/100. The AI will use a bunch of starters in the 25-35 ange, which may appear low to someone who hasn't seen this before. I'm pretty sure that any starter with over a 25 in Stamina will throw at least 90 pitches before getting tired. A SP prospect I have in minors with Stamina of 31-35 typically gets tired around 100 pitches.

2) To be able to undo an in-game substitution (e.g., pitching change, defensive sub, pinch hitter, etc.), you need to have the "Confirm Substitution" checkbox (this could be "Confirm Changes," can't remember exactly) in the upper right of the Options screen filled out. As for the other scenarios, I'm not aware of any work-arounds.

[simcrazy]

Originally Posted by Qwerty75

Responses to your questions:

1) The Stamina threshold for a pitcher to be able to throw the number of pitches required of a starter in outing before getting tired is 50/200 or 25/100. The AI will use a bunch of starters in the 25-35 ange, which may appear low to someone who hasn't seen this before. I'm pretty sure that any starter with over a 25 in Stamina will throw at least 90 pitches before getting tired. A SP prospect I have in minors with Stamina of 31-35 typically gets tired around 100 pitches.

2) To be able to undo an in-game substitution (e.g., pitching change, defensive sub, pinch hitter, etc.), you need to have the "Confirm Substitution" checkbox (this could be "Confirm Changes," can't remember exactly) in the upper right of the Options screen filled out. As for the other scenarios, I'm not aware of any work-arounds.

Thank you sir!

[Chicagofan76]

Originally Posted by Qwerty75

Responses to your questions:

1) The Stamina threshold for a pitcher to be able to throw the number of pitches required of a starter in outing before getting tired is 50/200 or 25/100. The AI will use a bunch of starters in the 25-35 ange, which may appear low to someone who hasn't seen this before. I'm pretty sure that any starter with over a 25 in Stamina will throw at least 90 pitches before getting tired. A SP prospect I have in minors with Stamina of 31-35 typically gets tired around 100 pitches.

So your saying that if you have a SP that has a stamina of 25 out of 250 he will/can pitch up to 90 pitches before getting tired? i set my self created closers at 25 which is a stamina of 1 on a 1-10 scale. I do have 9 SP of 250 in my league most pitches i have seen is 177 by 1 of my guys in 12 innings. I know I have used my MR as a spot starter without changing him to SP with a STA of 6 and the best he has given me was 77 pitches 7 2/3 before getting tired. Brian Anderson and Kevin Appier struggled with my team at a STA of 7 to pitch more then 90 pitches.

[damientheomen3]

Unfortunately, Markus has said that allowing the player to put the DH into the field would take a complete recoding of some aspect of the game which would take a while. Considering how infrequently it happens, I doubt Markus puts so much time into making it possible.

[Qwerty75]

Originally Posted by Chicagofan76

So your saying that if you have a SP that has a stamina of 25 out of 250 he will/can pitch up to 90 pitches before getting tired? i set my self created closers at 25 which is a stamina of 1 on a 1-10 scale. I do have 9 SP of 250 in my league most pitches i have seen is 177 by 1 of my guys in 12 innings. I know I have used my MR as a spot starter without changing him to SP with a STA of 6 and the best he has given me was 77 pitches 7 2/3 before getting tired. Brian Anderson and Kevin Appier struggled with my team at a STA of 7 to pitch more then 90 pitches.

Stamina of 50 out of 200 (256, actually) translates to 25 out of 100. This is the threshold that allows a pitcher to work as a starter, as I understand it.

Re: your MR, I think the assigned role affects a starter's endurance. That is, you need to put the pitcher's role as "Starter" in order for them to have maximum endurance for a given starter.

Not sure what happened with the other guys; it may have something to do with your settings or their rest status on the day of the start, or a rain delay - no clue.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by simcrazy

Spring training games are not realistic – only guys from the 40 man roster appear to be used.

Real-world clubs have the options of inviting non-40-man roster players to major league spring training camp. Teams in OOTP do not, as yet, have this ability (as far as I recall). It is a feature that has been requested before.

(If you're picking on realism issues, you overlooked the fact that spring training periods are far too short, at least as compared to MLB's.)

[simcrazy]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Real-world clubs have the options of inviting non-40-man roster players to major league spring training camp. Teams in OOTP do not, as yet, have this ability (as far as I recall). It is a feature that has been requested before.

(If you're picking on realism issues, you overlooked the fact that spring training periods are far too short, at least as compared to MLB's.)

Yup, exactly.

I don't have a big problem with the ST length. It is about a month of games, which is realistic. It does not (to my knowledge) have split-squad games, but that's not a big deal to me. I care more about the amount of players eligible, because (1) I don't want my core players playing too much and (2) I might want to get a look-see at that top prospect who I don't want to put on the 40-man roster yet.

[simcrazy]

Originally Posted by damientheomen3

Unfortunately, Markus has said that allowing the player to put the DH into the field would take a complete recoding of some aspect of the game which would take a while. Considering how infrequently it happens, I doubt Markus puts so much time into making it possible.

I have heard this and although I get it from a pure fiscal standpoint (time is money), it still stinks. Hard to believe that such a basic rule is that hard to implement, though I believe it and I am no programmer. It needs to be fixed. It's not just the frequency of it happening, it's also the roster planning that goes into it, like the poster who mentioned having Alex Avila and Victor Martinez.

[olivertheorem]

Hard to believe? Maybe, I guess. But the man says that's the reality, so what can you do?

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by simcrazy

I don't have a big problem with the ST length. It is about a month of games, which is realistic.

It's a fixed 24-game spring training schedule. MLB clubs in reality play about 32-34 games over a period of about five weeks. (In the past there were times when it was even longer, with clubs playing 38-40 games over six weeks.)

[simcrazy]

Originally Posted by olivertheorem

Hard to believe? Maybe, I guess. But the man says that's the reality, so what can you do?

Speak with your wallet.

[PSUColonel]

Yes, who are we as customers to expect a product that is satisfactory?

All joking aside though...I do feel OOTP has reached high aspirations, but's it's time for these little nickel and dime things to go away. If OOTPD needs more programmers in order to accomplish this, then I think they have to hire. OOTP has become too well known and respected for all of the loose ends it's had over the years.

[simcrazy]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

Yes, who are we as customers to expect a product that is satisfactory?

All joking aside though...I do feel OOTP has reached high aspirations, but's it's time for these little nickel and dime things to go away. If OOTPD needs more programmers in order to accomplish this, then I think they have to hire. OOTP has become too well known and respected for all of the loose ends it's had over the years.

Exactly. The small improvements made in the last two years from OOTP 10 to OOTP 12 mean little when bugs and deviations from reality exist over years and years. A year is a long time in a workplace, no? I would expect a lot to be accomplished over a year, and then I find there are tons of issues that cheapen the game.

Does anyone know the profit they are making; are they a publicly traded company?

[Cinnamon J. Scudworth]

Harping on the developer to make fixes in a product you have already purchased is the opposite of speaking with your wallet. If that's what you are trying to do, you should be focusing on OOTP 13 so that you are sure it will meet your expectations before you buy it.

[simcrazy]

Originally Posted by Cinnamon J. Scudworth

Harping on the developer to make fixes in a product you have already purchased is the opposite of speaking with your wallet. If that's what you are trying to do, you should be focusing on OOTP 13 so that you are sure it will meet your expectations before you buy it.

You make a good point, but I will point out that I intentionally skipped on OOTP 11 to speak with my wallet and that I purchased OOTP 12 to see what was fixed - I had no idea that they would have fixed very little and in fact, additional bugs have popped up. There is a problem with testing and apparently the time being put into the product from version to version.

You're right, next year I will post the list of deviations from reality in the OOTP 13 forum and if significant fixes have not been made, I will not buy.

If they do fix all the problems, I will buy for A LOT more than $40. $200. There, I said it, and I WILL put my money where my mouth is if the fixes are made.

[philthepat]

All of the points you raise would definitely be worth seeing in 13. The DH use, the NRIs for spring training. In fact, spring training could do with a bit of a revamp all around.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by simcrazy

YIf they do fix all the problems, I will buy for A LOT more than $40. $200. There, I said it, and I WILL put my money where my mouth is if the fixes are made.

Few PC gamers are going to spend that kind of money on one game. The fact is with a static fan base, that is, about the same number of purchasers as the game has now, then progression of the game will be slow because its economic base is small.

I expect that as a businessman Markus wants to grow his company, and that means not a static fan base but a growing one. A growing one means bringing in new users and (hopefully) retaining them as continuing customers. Too much detail will likely scare off a lot of potential customers.

As I said previously, details must be managed carefully. (And not all details are of equal importance to all users.)

[simcrazy]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Few PC gamers are going to spend that kind of money on one game. The fact is with a static fan base, that is, about the same number of purchasers as the game has now, then progression of the game will be slow because its economic base is small.

I expect that as a businessman Markus wants to grow his company, and that means not a static fan base but a growing one. A growing one means bringing in new users and (hopefully) retaining them as continuing customers. Too much detail will likely scare off a lot of potential customers.

As I said previously, details must be managed carefully. (And not all details are of equal importance to all users.)

That all makes sense, but you also need to factor in that I (and I'm sure there are others similar to me) won't be purchasing this game again until these bugs are fixed. It would be great to make many of the features optional, but I understand that takes more work as well, and I'm not sure how much work is devoted to OOTP. The DH in the field is certainly optional and I was told that ST is optional as well (I sim all my ST games) so I'm not sure why having it mirror reality would scare people off.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by simcrazy

That all makes sense, but you also need to factor in that I (and I'm sure there are others similar to me) won't be purchasing this game again until these bugs are fixed.

That is your prerogative of course. (And I'll point out that some of the things you've mentioned are not bugs but rather features that are not implemented.)

Originally Posted by simcrazy

The DH in the field is certainly optional and I was told that ST is optional as well (I sim all my ST games) so I'm not sure why having it mirror reality would scare people off.

I always use the wargame analogy with OOTP. There are "beer 'n' pretzels" wargames, that is, those that can be picked up and played easily, with a gentle learning curve. Then there are the "grognard" wargames, vast, complex entities that recreate battle in extensive detail (Gary Grigsby's Pacific War comes to mind here). Such "grognard" wargames can be very intimidating to new users due to the steep learning curve.

OOTP has much of the depth of a "grognard" wargame. The challenge is to have the game be as easy to pick up and start playing as a "beer 'n' pretzels" wargame while retaining its "grognard" depth. The easier it is for a new user to get into the game, the more such a new user will (hopefully) be converted into a repeat purchaser (and who will be able at their own pace to progress up to playing the game with "grognard" settings).

There have been a number of discussions in the beta forums about how to address this matter (I have my own thoughts on the subject), as well as how to get OOTP exposed to a wider audience that will hopefully be converted into paying customers. (iOOTP was a part of that process, as well as being its own enterprise.)