WBC AZ Decision

[zyberianwarrior]

World Boxing Council: No Mexican fighters in Ariz. - Boxing - Yahoo! Sports

my take ok illegal immigration IS a problem. The states know they have to take action for the federal ones will not or offer some bs amensty deal (along with making Puerto Rico a state which Puerto Rico does NOT want). Profiling doesnt work we all know that especially dealing with terrorists. Other states are quickly stepping in to combat this problem. The solution is simple national ID cards. BUT the current administration does NOT want that for fears they will lose their "votes". i have no problem showing my ID when I vote and you need some sort of ID to board a plane, drive a car, make a loan purchase and so on. I like to see how others feel about this.

As for the boxers most are pretty well known and those that are not have handlers that can get them anywhere.

So lets hear it all......

[Lee]

Like anybody still takes the WBC or any of the alphabet boys seriously.

Just like the folks that protested the D-Backs in Chicago today, sports and politics do not mix. One is a form of entertainment and the other is just....well, entertaining.

There needs to be something in place to combat the crime in AZ that is tied to the Mexican Drug cartels, but this law was not the answer. You need to focus on how and why the problem exists, not potentially target an entire race hoping your nets will catch a few "criminals"

I think it will be repealed eventually, even most of the police chiefs here are against it.

[CONN CHRIS]

Originally Posted by Lee

Like anybody still takes the WBC or any of the alphabet boys seriously.

Just like the folks that protested the D-Backs in Chicago today, sports and politics do not mix. One is a form of entertainment and the other is just....well, entertaining.

There needs to be something in place to combat the crime in AZ that is tied to the Mexican Drug cartels, but this law was not the answer. You need to focus on how and why the problem exists, not potentially target an entire race hoping your nets will catch a few "criminals"

I think it will be repealed eventually, even most of the police chiefs here are against it.

I am in favor of dealing far more harshly with the US companies and individuals that knowingly or recklessly hire illeagals. Choke the job supply.

Anyway, with the WBC's action, I am wondering if I may be on the wrong side of the issue.

[meade95]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

I am in favor of dealing far more harshly with the US companies and individuals that knowingly or recklessly hire illeagals. Choke the job supply.

Anyway, with the WBC's action, I am wondering if I may be on the wrong side of the issue.

Ok. You believe the answer is to add costs to businesses (who sole purepose/exsistence if you will is to employ people and make a profit for entirely reasons outside of immigration responsibilites). This is one of the FEW actual jobs given to our Gov't......

Yet, since they can't do it (or WON'T enforce already made laws) you want businesses to be responsible for checking into if people are actually "legal" or not (yet, at the same time you suugest POLICE aren't suppose to be able to do this). Are bussiness suppose to "profile" though???? becuase fake Soc Sec numbers are dime a dozen! People LIE on Applications all the time (in fact, about every illegal does so).....but you want bussinesses to have the added costs and burden of figuring out whether someone is lying to them or not....under the threat of more fines by the Gov't if they can't figure out the real truth... of which the Gov't isn't willing to findout themselves!!..... The same Gov't that isn't doing thier job in the first place of not allowing illegals in the Country.

Insane!

A bussiness does not exsist to do the jobs that our Gov't won't do. Nor to take on the added costs under the threats of fines to boot.

And what do you want these businesses to do when they find out through incredible amounts of research placed on them when someone is "ILLEGAL" ....Tell the ICE? Tell their local LE/Police?? What happens then?? Nothing is what happens.

No, this is the job and responsiblity of Government! Not the private sector. Un'Fing real. Blame the private sector again for Gov't made problems (just like the housing situation in which it was GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS that caused it..... NOT lack of regulations).


The AZ law makes perfect sense to anyone who is WILLING to be intellectually honest on the subject. Furthermore it does not allow for someone to simply be asked to show paperwork....ONLY AFTER THE FACT of an incident in which a person is stopped for another crime / law breaking situation....(and for the record, I despise the police state mentally that is too much throughout this Country....however, this is a subject in which such powers to the Police / State / Gov't only makes sense...and is really one of the few jobs they are actually suppose to be doing / enforcing...)

[Jersey-Jim]

Thanks to the financial crisis, people immigrating into the USA is way, way, down according to the recent studies and statistics I saw. In fact, the opposite is happening in some cases and people are leaving.

There just isn't enough work. I really don't know what the answer is. You can force people to pass an English test along with all the other requirements before they can become citizens, I suppose?

Like many other things in the world, the problems never get nipped in the bud and as a result, when people finally get around to wanting to take action, there is no longer such a thing as an easy fix.

It would cost a fortune to round up people and forcefully throw them out. If you make them all legal and add them to the tax base, most of them aren't making enough money to put light scratch on the deficit.

As far as the WBC goes, they're doing their best to stay in the spotlight and stay in the news - at all costs. It's all about marketing and they're going to become the "household" name among the alphabet organizations.

[CONN CHRIS]

Originally Posted by meade95

Ok. You believe the answer is to add costs to businesses (who sole purepose/exsistence if you will is to employ people and make a profit for entirely reasons outside of immigration responsibilites). This is one of the FEW actual jobs given to our Gov't......

Of course, the more full answer is to tighten border security, ramp up penalties and enforcement on the businesses that knowingly hire illeagals, stop social services cold to illeagals and speed up deportation of illeagals that comit crimes (we shouldn't be paying to house them). Then after a period of time, offer amnesty and a road to citizenship for those that remain who by definition will largely be non-criminals supporting themselves to some degree.

"Papers please" strikes me as taking a largely symbolic wave at a symptom. It also will allow those who wish to act out of racist feelings a legal platform to do so.

I am a conservative and a CPA. Even here in the Northeast, I have seen up close business owners hiring illeagals with full knowledge of what they are doing. It pisses me off and I am not moved by the argument that it turns business owners into a defacto unpaid police force. That is mythology. If a business owner requests and and receives the documents that they are required to by law they have few problems even if they were given false documents. It isn't time consuming or costly, it is part of every hiring process that I've ever seen conducted by people that want to follow the rules.

Many however, choose not to ask for the docs because they know what the answers will be and further know that there is little to no enforcement going on at that end of the situation - that's a problem and it's pretty damned stupid to defend business owners that screw us all by knowingly doing this.


Aside from all that, the thought of the WBC championing a just cause makes me chuckle.

[meade95]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

Of course, the more full answer is to tighten border security, ramp up penalties and enforcement on the businesses that knowingly hire illeagals, stop social services cold to illeagals and speed up deportation of illeagals that comit crimes (we shouldn't be paying to house them). Then after a period of time, offer amnesty and a road to citizenship for those that remain who by definition will largely be non-criminals supporting themselves to some degree..

Full agreement here outside of the notion of going after businesses - Businesses already have incredible amounts of Gov't mandated costs, that are constantly going up / requireing more resources that do nothing to help profitability nor the ability to hire new people (which this country drastically needs currently, with true unemployment over 16%).

Fake Soc Sec #'s along with applications full of lies (about citizenship) are commonplace and adding costs and requirements on companines to try and "prove" information false is just foolishness......(nor would companies be allowed profile when doing this....so this costs of complete and total background checks would then need to made on EVERY new potentinal employee....... Thus further reducing the companies ability to hire).

The mass problem of illegals being hired is not being done so on the download (in the know). But with illegals simply lying and saying they are citzens while giving fradulent Soc Sec #s or worker visa #s......The hotel industry is full of exactly these types of employees.... So is the construction job fields throughout the South...

This is the Gov't job (nice and easy or not, PC or not) it is their job..... Full Stop. Not the private sectors for them to try and make do it for them...

[meade95]

Originally Posted by Jersey-Jim

Thanks to the financial crisis, people immigrating into the USA is way, way, down according to the recent studies and statistics I saw. In fact, the opposite is happening in some cases and people are leaving.

There just isn't enough work. I really don't know what the answer is. You can force people to pass an English test along with all the other requirements before they can become citizens, I suppose?

Like many other things in the world, the problems never get nipped in the bud and as a result, when people finally get around to wanting to take action, there is no longer such a thing as an easy fix.

It would cost a fortune to round up people and forcefully through them out. If you make them all legal and add them to the tax base, most of them aren't making enough money to put light scratch on the deficit.

As far as the WBC goes, they're doing their best to stay in the spotlight and stay in the news - at all costs. It's all about marketing and they're going to become the "household" name among the alphabet organizations.

Good points.

And yes, the answer most certainly is NOT for a mass round up of people to deport off.....But the setting up of condtions to where a SELF-DEPORTATION takes place..... Where it is more and more difficult, with more and more costs placed on those here illegally to the point in which a self-deportation makes much more sense to them..Vs the risks and rewards of staying here illegally... A system along these lines would be fairly easy to put in place (if not for all the people who are unwilling to be honest on the subject.....or for people who simply see them as future votes and dependents of the Gov't nanny State.... Democrats).

[Cap]

I don't know what the situation is in the States, but up here in the previously Great White North, the birthrate has pretty nearly flatlined. Love 'em or hate 'em, we need immigration just to prevent this from becoming a nation of senior citizens. I know the same thing is happening in Japan and many European countries. It used to be we had six workers paying for every pensioner, in a short while with all the Baby Boomers retiring, it'll be 2 or 3 for every pensioner. We need fresh blood just to have enough staff for all the nursing homes they'll be building soon and herding us into....

Cap

[60sfan]

The Mexican border is too long to make it possible to keep people out. You have to have a disincentive for people to immigrate. The answer is probably a combination of a better economy in their home country (obviously), an ID card requirement and criminal punishment for companies that knowingly employ illegal aliens.

I strongly disagree with the Arizona method of rounding people up who "look like" they might be illegal immigrants because that simply results in profiling of any person with brown skin.

[meade95]

Originally Posted by 60sfan

I strongly disagree with the Arizona method of rounding people up who "look like" they might be illegal immigrants because that simply results in profiling of any person with brown skin.

Well be happy than, actually..... because that is NOT the law in AZ. You cannot be rounded up or stopped simply because of what you "look like"......The fact is the AZ law mirrors completely the current FEDERAL law already on the books..... They are simply saying "WE ARE GOING TO ENFORCE THE LAW"...... Meaning if you are stopped or involved in activities of which LE (law enforcement) is brought in.....Your citizenship or lack of it....will be questioned and if you are NOT legal (no matter the small violation of what caused you to be stopped)...your illegal status will be enforced and you will be sent out of the Country.

Which is exactly what should happen. That is exactly the type of "disincentive" that you talk about above......If at a moments notice, if you are here illegally, you can be removed (sans any of your belongings, family, etc, etc)...that is a pretty damn good incentive to once your work visa expires take the fruits of your labor and go back home ....to then lawfully reapply for another visa or to become a full citizen.

How can any serious adult be against such a simple and straightforward policy........We are becoming so childish in this nation that we are now debating wheather it is wrong to create a law that enforces already made laws on the books.....

[60sfan]

I discovered that Arizona changed the law on Thursday evening. Originally it required officers to inquire of a person's immigration status if officer's had a reasonable suspicion that the person was in the country illegally during any lawful contact. The language was changed Thursday evening to limit the inquiry to situations where the person was stopped, detained or arrested. Also a provision was added from using race as a criterion from enforcing this law. The changes make the law much better, in my opinion.

[zyberianwarrior]

well 60's when the ACLU is against something then you KNOW someone is on the right track. I would love to deliver a Tyson roundhouse to these clowns and put the rip van winkle on them.

As for the rest Like I said profiling doesnt make sense take NYC for example the person that left the van was White and the Taliban claimed responsibility (which has since to be proven to be non explosives anyway). I dont understand this issue because there is no way they can close the border and the illegals cross over again after about three days of being deported back. There is a way to do it but granting asylum is not it.