A more realistic rust/rest system

[Lastplaneout]

One thing that I would love to see in a future version of OOTP (I would imagine that it probably wouldn't make it into 11) is a more realistic way of modeling rest vs. rust. The fatigue engine seems fine, but it drives me crazy that I can activate a guy who has been on the DL for 12 months or sign a free agent who hasn't played organized ball for two years and have them pitch the next day with no apparent affects on performance. Realistically, players should require some amount of playing time (or at least active roster time) before they are game fit. In this situation, Spring Training playing time would actually be meaningful and minor league rehab assignments would be important. The Football Manager series handles this sort of thing very well, as players need a certain amount of playing time before they are considered "Match Fit".

[Malleus Dei]

The game handles things like rehab and practice in these cases abstractly.

Personally I'm thankful for that. I don't want to play "DL Manager."

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Lastplaneout

One thing that I would love to see in a future version of OOTP (I would imagine that it probably wouldn't make it into 11) is a more realistic way of modeling rest vs. rust. The fatigue engine seems fine, but it drives me crazy that I can activate a guy who has been on the DL for 12 months or sign a free agent who hasn't played organized ball for two years and have them pitch the next day with no apparent affects on performance. Realistically, players should require some amount of playing time (or at least active roster time) before they are game fit. In this situation, Spring Training playing time would actually be meaningful and minor league rehab assignments would be important. The Football Manager series handles this sort of thing very well, as players need a certain amount of playing time before they are considered "Match Fit".

FWIW I also play FM so am well aware of how it's done there and like it, in FM. OOTP is good "as is" IMHO. When a player is injured for "X" amount of time that includes time to get into baseball shape. I prefer this to having to play him at AA or AAA, if he's willing to go (something else that would have to be put in), for x amount of time and then move him again back to the active roster.

As far as spring training you do have to get the players into playing shape. It may not be as detailed or well done as FM but players that don't play enough will have rust at the beginning of the regular season.

[StyxNCa]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

The game handles things like rehab and practice in these cases abstractly.

Personally I'm thankful for that. I don't want to play "DL Manager."

Thanks for explaining that because I too thought having my players join the big team after a 6 week stay on the DL and not losing anything from before they went was a bit silly. Now that I know the game takes rehab into account as part of the DL time I can accept it.

[Lastplaneout]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

The game handles things like rehab and practice in these cases abstractly.

Personally I'm thankful for that. I don't want to play "DL Manager."

Of course you wouldn't have to play DL Manager. It seems like "rust" could be an option the same way that player fatigue is currently an option. There are obviously lots of places for improvement in the OOTP engine, and de-abstraction of player conditioning is one that would please me greatly.

Edit: For what it's worth, the thing that I actually get most frustrated with is the fact that players who have free agents for 2 years can jump right back into professional ball.

[fhomess]

Originally Posted by Lastplaneout

Of course you wouldn't have to play DL Manager. It seems like "rust" could be an option the same way that player fatigue is currently an option. There are obviously lots of places for improvement in the OOTP engine, and de-abstraction of player conditioning is one that would please me greatly.

It would certainly give the mods makers something to do as they try to figure out how to build an appropriate injury database.

[robc]

The two could be separated. Maybe rust from being on the DL can stay abstracted and be included in the injury time, but rust do to sitting on the bench or free agent market could be something that has to be overcome by playing.

I don't think there has been any official information that rust is factored into the DL time. I think it is a theory that somebody came up with to ratonalize a player being able to jump right back into playing on the major league roster. That is fine and a reasonable way to interpret it. I just don't think that is offically the way it is implemented.

[Jeffy25]

I have mixed feelings.

For example, in OOTPX, was Washington, drafted Strasburg....and then he tears his ACL and misses 14 months, not even making it the majors....by the time he comes back, his numbers are slightly worse, as well his potential ratings....This I would think would be realistic.

But I also don't think a guy like Ben Sheets should just be ready to go so quickly....maybe he needs extended time between starts etc.

This reminds me of some things I would like to see....A deal like what Roger Clemens got should be an option...(where he only pitched home starts and meaningful games)

I would like to see more incentive laden contract opportunities in the game, as well the default contracts to include the real life option years...(shouldn't be too hard to implement, Cot's has them all).

I would love to be able to do a signing with an injury plagued pitcher to a one year deal worth 1 million, but he gets bonuses for starts, innings, etc.....and that he would actually accept it.....it seems like guys only want guaranteed contracts...I have never seen the incentives matter, or believe there are enough incentive options.

[Afino]

Originally Posted by Jeffy25

I have mixed feelings.

For example, in OOTPX, was Washington, drafted Strasburg....and then he tears his ACL and misses 14 months, not even making it the majors....by the time he comes back, his numbers are slightly worse, as well his potential ratings....This I would think would be realistic.

An ACL injury I can see.

But I've seen pitchers actual/potential ratings absolutely SHREDDED for a 3 month HAMSTRING injury. Not even an arm injury or something significant like ACL. Just a hamstring tear. That's not right.

[akw4572]

I'd love to have a fatigue system where a resting player can pinch hit, and still get credited for resting that day. That drives me nuts.

[texasmame]

Originally Posted by Lastplaneout

One thing that I would love to see in a future version of OOTP (I would imagine that it probably wouldn't make it into 11) is a more realistic way of modeling rest vs. rust. The fatigue engine seems fine, but it drives me crazy that I can activate a guy who has been on the DL for 12 months or sign a free agent who hasn't played organized ball for two years and have them pitch the next day with no apparent affects on performance. Realistically, players should require some amount of playing time (or at least active roster time) before they are game fit. In this situation, Spring Training playing time would actually be meaningful and minor league rehab assignments would be important. The Football Manager series handles this sort of thing very well, as players need a certain amount of playing time before they are considered "Match Fit".

On the same idea, Baseball for Windows factored in too much rest/use rather well.

If you didn't play a guy for 5 days or so, he would become "itchy." When he was used with the "itchy" status, he may do better than he normally would, worse or the same. After using an "itchy" player, he returned to normal status. This was for both pitchers and position players. So much as an appearance in a game in any fashion would remove the "itchy" status.

Also, using a guy to many days in a row made him "tired." Continued usage wore him down further (I forget the exact wordings) and eventually he would be injured. I know OOTP does keep track of fatigue of position players a bit but I would like to see a bit more realism there.

It was a good way to make sure the entire roster was used and added to the realism of the game.

I do miss that and wish OOTP would institute something similar.

[robc]

I too wish a more realistic system was used for fatigue and rust. I don't follow real baseball anymore, so I don't know what would be realistic, but the current system seems too generic.

I'm just guessing here, but it seems that most non-catcher position players who are not too old could play nearly every game without needing fatigue reduced ratings. Maybe there would be a little variation just due to fitness and genetics.

It seems like the rust feature could be a little more developed. Players who are not used after a period of time should need to get a little playing time to return to their optimal ratings.

[toddgregory]

As I have mentioned before, I think the injury system is somewhat unrealistic. Athletes dont just get injured and then recover. Injuries are often chronic and many athletes who are injured have their performance affected negatively for an extended period of time.

Example, Rickie Weeks hurts his wrist and misses 2 weeks. He should not come back at 100% following being out. Instead he could be out for a period of time but then when he returns be at 70% for awhile and then gradually progress to 80 or 85% for the remainder of the season. And then return to 100% following the off-season.

I guess my point is that most injuries LINGER. Also, repeated injuries should affect a players durability and also longevity.

Thanks

[Killing Time]

I think my entire team must be itchy.

[robc]

Originally Posted by Killing Time

I think my entire team must be itchy.

There is an ointment for that.

[Killing Time]

Originally Posted by robc

There is an ointment for that.

Ship them a case!

[CBL-Commish]

What we're missing here is data. All we have is ideas about how various folks think rest and rust and fatigue should work based on vague ideas and ancedotes and stories. It seems reasonable that many or most players should have lingering effects from injuries. But is it true? Can we quanitfy that? How do you model the effects of hundreds of different injury types and millions of combinations of injuries+individuals?

Data drives modeling, and OOTP is a baseball model. Without good information we're just guessing, and we'll probably guess wrong, and that will probably drive results to be unrealistic in unforseen ways.

[Lastplaneout]

Originally Posted by CBL-Commish

What we're missing here is data. All we have is ideas about how various folks think rest and rust and fatigue should work based on vague ideas and ancedotes and stories. It seems reasonable that many or most players should have lingering effects from injuries. But is it true? Can we quanitfy that? How do you model the effects of hundreds of different injury types and millions of combinations of injuries+individuals?

Data drives modeling, and OOTP is a baseball model. Without good information we're just guessing, and we'll probably guess wrong, and that will probably drive results to be unrealistic in unforseen ways.

Oh, I think that this is a completely reasonable point. The worst possible decision would be to create a complicated rust/rest system based entirely on conjecture. I also agree that rust/rest effects are incredibly hard to quantify, and probably difficult to extract from statistical noise.

One thing that we can do is look at real-world roster management. It certainly does seem to be the case that players who have taken a long lay-off from playing will often play a few games in the minors and/or take extended Spring Training before joining the major league club. It's certainly possible that this "rehab" is actually totally unnecessary, but it doesn't really seem like too much of stretch to say that is done for a good reason.

[Dr. P.R. Park III]

Totally irrelevant, but do you really listen to Xiu Xiu that much? You don't find that dudes voice whiny, nasally, or creepy? Different strokes for different folks, I suppose.

[Lastplaneout]

Originally Posted by Dr. P.R. Park III

Totally irrelevant, but do you really listen to Xiu Xiu that much? You don't find that dudes voice whiny, nasally, or creepy? Different strokes for different folks, I suppose.

I like weird music.