Historical Leagues - Does Anyone Have...

Ksyrup · 04-13-2002, 05:57 AM

a ready-to-go early 1900's realistic league setup I can "borrow" to start a league? For some reason, I've decided I want to start an historical league, preferably starting around 1900-1903, with the correct initial league setup, teams, and players. However, I don't have the patience or knowledge to set this up correctly, and the way I intend to run the league, all I really need is the initial league setup anyway.

I plan on fictionalizing everything other than what the game starts with. All real players and teams as of the year I start will be included, but all players, team moves, league expansions, etc., from there on out will be fictional.

If anyone has a league setup file I can download I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks!

Tiger Fan · 04-13-2002, 06:19 AM

I can send you my post 1901 (first season simmed) league file with proper team names and realistic league settings. However, it will not work well at all with fictional players. If you are going with fictional players they will all be created as modern fictional players (mainly huge difference in home runs) and will be really incompatiable with the 1901 real players.

If you want I can send you a list of proper team names and tinker with the settings to find a good league setup that will mimic the deadball era but you will be much happier with the results using either all real players or all fictional.

IatricSB · 04-13-2002, 09:54 AM

I have one for opening day 1901. Its the one I always use to start my leagues with. It has the correct logos, ballparks, team nicknames, etc.

Ksyrup · 04-13-2002, 10:12 AM

Tiger Fan, thanks for the suggestion, maybe I will go with all fictional players then. I think I have the teams/nicknames to create the shell of a realistic league setup, and I guess I'll fill the teams with fictional players. Thanks for the responses.

Granny Hamner · 04-15-2002, 07:21 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Tiger Fan:
If you are going with fictional players they will all be created as modern fictional players (mainly huge difference in home runs) and will be really incompatiable with the 1901 real players.
<hr /></blockquote>Is there anyway to create fictional Deadball Era players? Would changing the Era Settings or League Totals work in limiting HRs in a fictional deadball league?

spleen1015 · 04-15-2002, 07:58 AM

IatricSB, do you have that league available for dl anywhere?

Malleus Dei · 04-15-2002, 08:26 AM

Guys, post your leagues to <a href="http://www.bigcitybaseball.com" target="_blank">www.bigcitybaseball.com</a> and to <a href="http://www.baseballsimcentral.com," target="_blank">www.baseballsimcentral.com,</a> my five seasons there are getting lonely.

Tiger Fan · 04-15-2002, 09:01 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Granny Hamner:
[QB<hr /></blockquote>Is there anyway to create fictional Deadball Era players? Would changing the Era Settings or League Totals work in limiting HRs in a fictional deadball league?[/QB][/QUOTE]

It would work okay with entirely fictional players but the problem you have is that when the game generates players they have ratings normalized for today's baseball. As a result the main problem is your fictional rookie pool would have all knids of guys with high homer numbers while the original deadball players are lucky to max out at 3 or 4 for homers. If you tried to change the settings so that the fictional rookies hit a maximum of 10-15 homers a year then the deadballers you started your league with would be lucky to hit 1 homer. There also would be problems with strikeouts and triples.

If you want deadball era stats with entirely fictional players it can be done by tinkering with the league settings but it just won't work properly combining fictional rookies and real life players from the deadball era.

Granny Hamner · 04-15-2002, 09:15 AM

Tiger Fan, thanks for the info. This is a bit disappointing. I was thinking of creating a fictional deadball league. I am currently reading a bio of Walter Johnson, who starred in the six-team Southwestern Idaho League in the minors, with great team nicknames like "Prune Pickers", etc. This got me to thinking about a fictional league, but I wanted to have it with players similar to those from that era.

I suppose I could simply use real players and draft onto a different set of teams.

IatricSB · 04-15-2002, 09:49 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by spleen1015:
IatricSB, do you have that league available for dl anywhere?<hr /></blockquote>I'm going to upload it to the Boys of Summer site this afternoon. Should be up within the next hour. Click the button that says FILES and look for a link.

<a href="http://www.boys-of-summer.com" target="_blank">Boys of Summer - Utilities, Databases, and Rosters</a>

Tiger Fan · 04-15-2002, 09:52 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Granny Hamner:
Tiger Fan, thanks for the info. This is a bit disappointing. I was thinking of creating a fictional deadball league. I am currently reading a bio of Walter Johnson, who starred in the six-team Southwestern Idaho League in the minors, with great team nicknames like "Prune Pickers", etc. This got me to thinking about a fictional league, but I wanted to have it with players similar to those from that era.

I suppose I could simply use real players and draft onto a different set of teams.<hr /></blockquote>You still can create a fictional deadball league. Just make it entirely fictional players and you wont have a problem. You will have to tinker with your league settings a bit until you get stats how you want them but it can be done relatively easy. What I was trying to point out was it wont work if you combine real deadball players and computer generated fictional rookies but going entirely with fictional players should work fine.

IatricSB · 04-15-2002, 09:59 AM

Had some spare time during lunch... The file has been posted (1901League.zip)

spleen1015 · 04-15-2002, 10:11 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by IatricSB:
Had some spare time during lunch... The file has been posted (1901League.zip)<hr /></blockquote>Awesome. Thanks!

Granny Hamner · 04-15-2002, 10:22 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Tiger Fan:
You still can create a fictional deadball league. Just make it entirely fictional players and you wont have a problem.<hr /></blockquote>I re-read your post and now I understand, I think. When my fictional league creates new rookies for each year, those players will perform in line with the existing fictional players, all of whom should react the same way to the League Totals setting. Thanks for clearing that up.

Anrhydeddu · 04-15-2002, 11:46 AM

Thank you, this is good information.

Ksyrup · 04-16-2002, 04:49 AM

I spent all of last night running test sims trying to get league settings that gave me the kind of stats I was looking for. One thing I noticed early on is that it is damn near impossible to produce with fictional players the range of stats that Deadball Era players produced, in terms of strikeouts, ERA, and BA. In order to get pitcher's ERA leaders under 2.00, I'm dropping batting averages too far, and vice versa. It's hard to produce pitchers with ERA around 1.50 and hitters with batting averages over .350, unless you alter some of the hitters.

So, I'm just going with settings that aren't going to be 100% accurate, but that will allow me to re-create what a reasonable alternate baseball league would have looked like in the early 1900's - I'll be satisfied with that.

I don't have them here and I changed them frequently, but I think this is what I came up with last night:

AB - 100000
H - 27500
2B - 4000
3B - 400
HR - 12500
BB - 12500
HBP - 1500
SO - 34000

My only issue is with BB/SO - I don't know what was reasonable for hitters or pitchers in terms of number of of walks and strikeouts back then. Can anyone help me out? What did the league leaders in hitters and pitchers walks and strikeouts average during the first decade or so? Thanks!

Tiger Fan · 04-16-2002, 05:16 AM

Ksyrup
1 problem you encounter is that there is no record of strikeouts by hitters for the first decade or so. As a result in a historical league virtually every hitter is rated brilliant for avoiding k's.

It makes it a little more difficult to get decent strikeout totals because of this.

As for walks looks like teams average about 400 per season so I would break it down to an average of drawing about 40-50 a season for an everyday player. Checking baseball reference looks like the leader drew an average 80-90 per season.

The top pitchers seemed to average around 150-200 k's a season with a couple of exceptions (like Rube Waddell fanning 302 in 1903 with the number 2 guy k'ing just 187) and the leader in issuing walks looks to be around the 90-100 mark each. This isnt real scientific as I just glanced quickly at the leaderboard each season but should give you a basic idea.

[ 04-16-2002, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: Tiger Fan ]

Ksyrup · 04-16-2002, 05:25 AM

I went to that site after I posted. I didn't realize they had year-by-year records, so that is a great help. I also didn't know that some guy had 513 K's (pre-1900 of course), and that another guy, making Kevin Saucier look like Greg Maddux, walked 289 in one year. Amazing numbers!

Thanks. This will help tremendously. I'm going to go back and rework the league settings for BB and SO.

Granny Hamner · 04-16-2002, 06:34 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Tiger Fan:
1 problem you encounter is that there is no record of strikeouts by hitters for the first decade or so. As a result in a historical league virtually every hitter is rated brilliant for avoiding k's.<hr /></blockquote>I assume this also applies to caught stealing, which was not kept until 1950 or so. Do you have any suggestions for dealing with this issue? I noticed in your FAQ you mention editing the stats to account for things like this, but do you have anything in particular you do for Ks and CS during these eras.

Tiger Fan · 04-16-2002, 07:45 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Granny Hamner:
I assume this also applies to caught stealing, which was not kept until 1950 or so. Do you have any suggestions for dealing with this issue? I noticed in your FAQ you mention editing the stats to account for things like this, but do you have anything in particular you do for Ks and CS during these eras.<hr /></blockquote>I usually set all teams to Not Often for stealing in the team set menu. You still have sb% that are likely way too high but at least the total number of steals is about right. The other option is to edit down a lot of the players base stealing and speed ratings but without first hand knowledge or some data it is really a guessing game. I tend to give the high triples and high sb guys the best ratings and lower the speed and stealing rating of the others.

Btw, the American League CS data is on baseballreference starting in 1920 but National league data is not listed until the 1950 season so it is more than just a deadball era problem.

[ 04-16-2002, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: Tiger Fan ]

04-13-2002, 05:57 AM	#1
Ksyrup Major Leagues Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 413	Historical Leagues - Does Anyone Have... a ready-to-go early 1900's realistic league setup I can "borrow" to start a league? For some reason, I've decided I want to start an historical league, preferably starting around 1900-1903, with the correct initial league setup, teams, and players. However, I don't have the patience or knowledge to set this up correctly, and the way I intend to run the league, all I really need is the initial league setup anyway. I plan on fictionalizing everything other than what the game starts with. All real players and teams as of the year I start will be included, but all players, team moves, league expansions, etc., from there on out will be fictional. If anyone has a league setup file I can download I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks!

04-13-2002, 06:19 AM	#2
Tiger Fan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Ontario Canada Posts: 9,873	I can send you my post 1901 (first season simmed) league file with proper team names and realistic league settings. However, it will not work well at all with fictional players. If you are going with fictional players they will all be created as modern fictional players (mainly huge difference in home runs) and will be really incompatiable with the 1901 real players. If you want I can send you a list of proper team names and tinker with the settings to find a good league setup that will mimic the deadball era but you will be much happier with the results using either all real players or all fictional. __________________ Cliff Markle HOB1 greatest pitcher 360-160, 9 Welch Awards, 11 WS titles

04-13-2002, 09:54 AM	#3
IatricSB Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: California Posts: 3,493	I have one for opening day 1901. Its the one I always use to start my leagues with. It has the correct logos, ballparks, team nicknames, etc. __________________ Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow! What a Ride!" Chicago(N) - Boys of Summer Oakland - 20th Century League Bakersfield - Wild Things Brooklyn - QBA Dodge City - NBSL California - ABC Dodger's Senioriest fan on the OOTP Boards

04-15-2002, 07:21 AM	#5
Granny Hamner Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 51	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Tiger Fan: <strong>If you are going with fictional players they will all be created as modern fictional players (mainly huge difference in home runs) and will be really incompatiable with the 1901 real players. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is there anyway to create fictional Deadball Era players? Would changing the Era Settings or League Totals work in limiting HRs in a fictional deadball league? __________________ "Q - What's it like being the smallest guy in the majors? A- It's a lot better than being the smallest guy in the minors." -- Billy Bates.

04-15-2002, 09:01 AM	#8
Tiger Fan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Ontario Canada Posts: 9,873	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Granny Hamner: [QB</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is there anyway to create fictional Deadball Era players? Would changing the Era Settings or League Totals work in limiting HRs in a fictional deadball league?[/QB][/QUOTE] It would work okay with entirely fictional players but the problem you have is that when the game generates players they have ratings normalized for today's baseball. As a result the main problem is your fictional rookie pool would have all knids of guys with high homer numbers while the original deadball players are lucky to max out at 3 or 4 for homers. If you tried to change the settings so that the fictional rookies hit a maximum of 10-15 homers a year then the deadballers you started your league with would be lucky to hit 1 homer. There also would be problems with strikeouts and triples. If you want deadball era stats with entirely fictional players it can be done by tinkering with the league settings but it just won't work properly combining fictional rookies and real life players from the deadball era. __________________ Cliff Markle HOB1 greatest pitcher 360-160, 9 Welch Awards, 11 WS titles

04-13-2002, 10:12 AM	#4
Ksyrup Major Leagues Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 413	Tiger Fan, thanks for the suggestion, maybe I will go with all fictional players then. I think I have the teams/nicknames to create the shell of a realistic league setup, and I guess I'll fill the teams with fictional players. Thanks for the responses.

04-15-2002, 07:58 AM	#6
spleen1015 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,008	IatricSB, do you have that league available for dl anywhere?

04-15-2002, 09:15 AM	#9
Granny Hamner Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 51	Tiger Fan, thanks for the info. This is a bit disappointing. I was thinking of creating a fictional deadball league. I am currently reading a bio of Walter Johnson, who starred in the six-team Southwestern Idaho League in the minors, with great team nicknames like "Prune Pickers", etc. This got me to thinking about a fictional league, but I wanted to have it with players similar to those from that era. I suppose I could simply use real players and draft onto a different set of teams. __________________ "Q - What's it like being the smallest guy in the majors? A- It's a lot better than being the smallest guy in the minors." -- Billy Bates.

04-15-2002, 09:49 AM	#10
IatricSB Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: California Posts: 3,493	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by spleen1015: <strong>IatricSB, do you have that league available for dl anywhere?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm going to upload it to the Boys of Summer site this afternoon. Should be up within the next hour. Click the button that says FILES and look for a link. <a href="http://www.boys-of-summer.com" target="_blank">Boys of Summer - Utilities, Databases, and Rosters</a> __________________ Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow! What a Ride!" Chicago(N) - Boys of Summer Oakland - 20th Century League Bakersfield - Wild Things Brooklyn - QBA Dodge City - NBSL California - ABC Dodger's Senioriest fan on the OOTP Boards

04-15-2002, 09:52 AM	#11
Tiger Fan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Ontario Canada Posts: 9,873	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Granny Hamner: <strong>Tiger Fan, thanks for the info. This is a bit disappointing. I was thinking of creating a fictional deadball league. I am currently reading a bio of Walter Johnson, who starred in the six-team Southwestern Idaho League in the minors, with great team nicknames like "Prune Pickers", etc. This got me to thinking about a fictional league, but I wanted to have it with players similar to those from that era. I suppose I could simply use real players and draft onto a different set of teams.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You still can create a fictional deadball league. Just make it entirely fictional players and you wont have a problem. You will have to tinker with your league settings a bit until you get stats how you want them but it can be done relatively easy. What I was trying to point out was it wont work if you combine real deadball players and computer generated fictional rookies but going entirely with fictional players should work fine. __________________ Cliff Markle HOB1 greatest pitcher 360-160, 9 Welch Awards, 11 WS titles

04-15-2002, 09:59 AM	#12
IatricSB Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: California Posts: 3,493	Had some spare time during lunch... The file has been posted (1901League.zip) __________________ Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow! What a Ride!" Chicago(N) - Boys of Summer Oakland - 20th Century League Bakersfield - Wild Things Brooklyn - QBA Dodge City - NBSL California - ABC Dodger's Senioriest fan on the OOTP Boards

04-15-2002, 10:11 AM	#13
spleen1015 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,008	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by IatricSB: <strong>Had some spare time during lunch... The file has been posted (1901League.zip)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Awesome. Thanks!

04-15-2002, 10:22 AM	#14
Granny Hamner Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 51	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Tiger Fan: <strong>You still can create a fictional deadball league. Just make it entirely fictional players and you wont have a problem.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I re-read your post and now I understand, I think. When my fictional league creates new rookies for each year, those players will perform in line with the existing fictional players, all of whom should react the same way to the League Totals setting. Thanks for clearing that up. __________________ "Q - What's it like being the smallest guy in the majors? A- It's a lot better than being the smallest guy in the minors." -- Billy Bates.

04-15-2002, 11:46 AM	#15
Anrhydeddu Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 52	Thank you, this is good information.

04-16-2002, 04:49 AM	#16
Ksyrup Major Leagues Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 413	I spent all of last night running test sims trying to get league settings that gave me the kind of stats I was looking for. One thing I noticed early on is that it is damn near impossible to produce with fictional players the range of stats that Deadball Era players produced, in terms of strikeouts, ERA, and BA. In order to get pitcher's ERA leaders under 2.00, I'm dropping batting averages too far, and vice versa. It's hard to produce pitchers with ERA around 1.50 and hitters with batting averages over .350, unless you alter some of the hitters. So, I'm just going with settings that aren't going to be 100% accurate, but that will allow me to re-create what a reasonable alternate baseball league would have looked like in the early 1900's - I'll be satisfied with that. I don't have them here and I changed them frequently, but I think this is what I came up with last night: AB - 100000 H - 27500 2B - 4000 3B - 400 HR - 12500 BB - 12500 HBP - 1500 SO - 34000 My only issue is with BB/SO - I don't know what was reasonable for hitters or pitchers in terms of number of of walks and strikeouts back then. Can anyone help me out? What did the league leaders in hitters and pitchers walks and strikeouts average during the first decade or so? Thanks!

04-16-2002, 05:16 AM	#17
Tiger Fan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Ontario Canada Posts: 9,873	Ksyrup 1 problem you encounter is that there is no record of strikeouts by hitters for the first decade or so. As a result in a historical league virtually every hitter is rated brilliant for avoiding k's. It makes it a little more difficult to get decent strikeout totals because of this. As for walks looks like teams average about 400 per season so I would break it down to an average of drawing about 40-50 a season for an everyday player. Checking baseball reference looks like the leader drew an average 80-90 per season. The top pitchers seemed to average around 150-200 k's a season with a couple of exceptions (like Rube Waddell fanning 302 in 1903 with the number 2 guy k'ing just 187) and the leader in issuing walks looks to be around the 90-100 mark each. This isnt real scientific as I just glanced quickly at the leaderboard each season but should give you a basic idea. <small>[ 04-16-2002, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: Tiger Fan ]</small> __________________ Cliff Markle HOB1 greatest pitcher 360-160, 9 Welch Awards, 11 WS titles

04-16-2002, 05:25 AM	#18
Ksyrup Major Leagues Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 413	I went to that site after I posted. I didn't realize they had year-by-year records, so that is a great help. I also didn't know that some guy had 513 K's (pre-1900 of course), and that another guy, making Kevin Saucier look like Greg Maddux, walked 289 in one year. Amazing numbers! Thanks. This will help tremendously. I'm going to go back and rework the league settings for BB and SO.

04-16-2002, 06:34 AM	#19
Granny Hamner Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 51	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Tiger Fan: <strong>1 problem you encounter is that there is no record of strikeouts by hitters for the first decade or so. As a result in a historical league virtually every hitter is rated brilliant for avoiding k's.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I assume this also applies to caught stealing, which was not kept until 1950 or so. Do you have any suggestions for dealing with this issue? I noticed in your FAQ you mention editing the stats to account for things like this, but do you have anything in particular you do for Ks and CS during these eras. __________________ "Q - What's it like being the smallest guy in the majors? A- It's a lot better than being the smallest guy in the minors." -- Billy Bates.

04-16-2002, 07:45 AM	#20
Tiger Fan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Ontario Canada Posts: 9,873	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Granny Hamner: <strong>I assume this also applies to caught stealing, which was not kept until 1950 or so. Do you have any suggestions for dealing with this issue? I noticed in your FAQ you mention editing the stats to account for things like this, but do you have anything in particular you do for Ks and CS during these eras.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I usually set all teams to Not Often for stealing in the team set menu. You still have sb% that are likely way too high but at least the total number of steals is about right. The other option is to edit down a lot of the players base stealing and speed ratings but without first hand knowledge or some data it is really a guessing game. I tend to give the high triples and high sb guys the best ratings and lower the speed and stealing rating of the others. Btw, the American League CS data is on baseballreference starting in 1920 but National league data is not listed until the 1950 season so it is more than just a deadball era problem. <small>[ 04-16-2002, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: Tiger Fan ]</small> __________________ Cliff Markle HOB1 greatest pitcher 360-160, 9 Welch Awards, 11 WS titles