Hit & Run

Tony M · 10-29-2008, 09:19 AM

I'm just wondering if this is just me, but when choosing Hit & Run from the batting options it appears to try Run & Hit.

I've had around 70% of H&R attempts end with the runner tagged out at second on a called strike - surely one of the key ingredients of a called strike is the lack of ball on bat noise and the runner shouldn't really be gunning for the next base.

Though in one case I was 1 run down, runner on 3rd, 2 out, bottom of the ninth and I chose H&R and the runner went for it on a called strike and somehow managed to swipe home.

Curtis · 10-29-2008, 10:23 AM

I agree with your general observation. Back in OotPB2006 I twice questioned whether 'Hit and Run' and 'Run and Hit' were being implemented properly and was twice assured (once by the community and once by Markus) that it was. I wish you better luck than I had.

As a related issue, 'Run and Hit' seems to act like a straight forced steal event. I gave up using it because the batter never swings and the pitch is always a called strike.

In the days of my youth (the 1970s) the usual thing was for batters to swing when they knew a stolen base attempt was coming. The theory was that swinging threw the catcher off by a fraction and thereby delayed his throw slightly. Apparently this is no longer practiced in real baseball, but I would sure like to see it in the game. It really annoys me that every time my baserunner breaks for second he's giving the pitcher a free strike. I guess seeing that runner go out of the corner of his eye must concentrate the pitcher's mind something wonderful.

Tony M · 10-29-2008, 11:07 AM

This might be a study to take a while.

I just started another game in play-out mode with the following batting strategy.

Swing away until I get a batter on base. And then only use the "Hit And Run" option until bases are empty/inning over.

This was the second inning of my R league game. Mendoza stole all the way from 1st to 2nd to 3rd to home on a three pitch swinging strikeout. 270 yards of steal without a hit to run to.

And the fact that the catcher failed to tag a stealing runner despite the fact the ball was signed, sealed and delivered straight to his glove.

satchel · 10-29-2008, 11:44 AM

Cool to see a steal of home, I've never seen one yet, but I just watch computer-managed games.

Did get my first triple play the other day.

endgame · 10-29-2008, 12:15 PM

For general review, the distinction between the two is grey at best, but still exists. The runner IS planning to go on a hit and run and, as a result - unless you have a very good contact hitter at the plate - will amount to a play based on his STE ability alone as the type and speed of the pitch don't weigh into the result.

The run and hit, while not documented very clearly in baseball literature OR in the manual is a tandem operation between the runner and batter coordinated to hit the hole the runner is creating IF the pitch is one the batter can direct into that location. The game doesn't state whether the batter's INT or his CON is being utilized in that style of baserunning, but both are unlikely as the location and result of the play are determined earlier in the logic.

I'm not ready to say a problem exists. I do support the idea that on a Hit and Run, the likelihood of a runner being thrown out would be greater.

Here's a link and a pic.

In Baseball, What is a Hit and Run?

Curtis · 10-29-2008, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by satchel

Cool to see a steal of home, I've never seen one yet, but I just watch computer-managed games.

Off topic, but I've played out a grand total of 21 games, and I have one successful steal of home, though it was unintentional. I was trying (yet again) to squeeze bunt the runner in from third. This has worked once in close to twenty attempts. The one success was when the bunter missed the ball and the runner stole home. (Note: I have only attempted the squeeze only with runners with blue speed and hitters with green or blue sac bunt ratings, and it still has only a 5% success rate.)

Leatherfut · 10-29-2008, 04:23 PM

Hi All,
Weird. I get totally different result than what's been described. I have 4-1/2 seasons under my belt now, playing out most of my games and I use the hit and run quite a bit (probably more than conventional wisdom would suggest) and I think it works pretty well. The usual result is a ground out, followed by a single, in which the runner goes to third. The batter misses occasionally, sometimes there's a fly ball or line drive. My only triple play occurred when I had two men on and my batter hit a line drive. I've never tried to do a hit and run with a man only on third so I don't know about that.

As a strategy note, hit and run is generally when a man is on first and you want to get him into scoring position. My thinking is, "I'm hoping for a hit, but I expect a ground out, getting the runner to second." Hit and run with two outs isn't very good strategy.
Sometimes I'll try with first and second, sometimes with first and third, in which only the man on first runs. I can't believe the game lets a lone guy on third run on that play.

Regarding the squeeze play: I've done this quite a bit too and it seems pretty realistic to me. Probably half the time it results in a sacrifice bunt, sometimes a missed bunt or popped up.

regards,
Frank

Afino · 10-29-2008, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony M

Mendoza stole all the way from 1st to 2nd to 3rd to home on a three pitch swinging strikeout. 270 yards of steal without a hit to run to.

That's awesome.

Curtis · 10-29-2008, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leatherfut

As a strategy note, hit and run is generally when a man is on first and you want to get him into scoring position. My thinking is, "I'm hoping for a hit, but I expect a ground out, getting the runner to second." Hit and run with two outs isn't very good strategy.

Regarding the squeeze play: I've done this quite a bit too and it seems pretty realistic to me. Probably half the time it results in a sacrifice bunt, sometimes a missed bunt or popped up.

In real life the Mets 'only' hit and run with one or no outs and only a runner on first. Under Manuel's regime they do it more than most teams, but mostly only with slow hitters in an effort to avoid double plays. With fast hitters they do straight steals, though nowhere near as often as they did under Randolph.

My experience with the suicide squeeze is that the most common result is runner out at home, at bat continues. With the safety squeeze the most common result is bunt single, runner holds.

ccaranna · 10-30-2008, 11:42 PM

I'm not saying anything groundbreaking here, but

I always felt that the hit and run was used when you had a slow runner on first and a good contact hitter at bat in order to decrease the likelihood of hitting into a double play. If the hitter gets a hit, then you've got runners on the corners. If he grounds out (to the right side, hopefully) you've got a man on second.

I use the run and hit when I've got a speedy runner on first and an average to below average contact hitter at the plate. I don't use it much, but when I do, I'm confident the runner has a good chance at stealing second and it doesn't really matter if the batter makes contact or not. Ultimately, this is really no different than a straight steal except your forcing the batter to swing.

To me, the run and hit doesn't really have much purpose, since if the runner feels he can steal 2nd pretty easily, it potentially wastes an at-bat for the hitter because he's forced to swing at a pitch he may not want to. It's better to just take the pitch and focus on getting something you want to hit once the runner makes it into 2nd.

For me, the only time the run and hit makes sense is if I'm gunning to score a run from first with 2 outs, but then the hitter has to get a hit in order for that to happen.

Curtis · 10-31-2008, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C#minor

Ultimately, this is really no different than a straight steal except your forcing the batter to swing.

To me, the run and hit doesn't really have much purpose, since if the runner feels he can steal 2nd pretty easily, it potentially wastes an at-bat for the hitter because he's forced to swing at a pitch he may not want to. It's better to just take the pitch and focus on getting something you want to hit once the runner makes it into 2nd.

As I noted in post #2, when I run and hit the batter never swings, and the pitch is always a called strike. Apparently you're seeing something much different.

ccaranna · 11-03-2008, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curtis

As I noted in post #2, when I run and hit the batter never swings, and the pitch is always a called strike. Apparently you're seeing something much different.

You're right.

PhillieFever · 11-03-2008, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by satchel

Cool to see a steal of home, I've never seen one yet, but I just watch computer-managed games.

Did get my first triple play the other day.

Since I'm in the deadball era its not as uncommon as a modern league would be so with that,I've stolen home and been stolen on around 5 times each in roughly a year and two months.

Afino · 11-08-2008, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curtis

As a related issue, 'Run and Hit' seems to act like a straight forced steal event. I gave up using it because the batter never swings and the pitch is always a called strike.

I just ran a Run & Hit on a 2-strike count for ****s and giggles and the batter swung. So maybe it's just on a two-strike count and the pitch was a strike?

Curtis · 11-08-2008, 08:35 PM

Or it might be small sample size. I got exasperated with it and quit doing it in favor of Hit and Run. Maybe if I'd stuck with it my results would've turned around.

10-29-2008, 09:19 AM	#1
Tony M Global Moderator Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Here Posts: 6,156	Hit & Run I'm just wondering if this is just me, but when choosing Hit & Run from the batting options it appears to try Run & Hit. I've had around 70% of H&R attempts end with the runner tagged out at second on a called strike - surely one of the key ingredients of a called strike is the lack of ball on bat noise and the runner shouldn't really be gunning for the next base. Though in one case I was 1 run down, runner on 3rd, 2 out, bottom of the ninth and I chose H&R and the runner went for it on a called strike and somehow managed to swipe home. __________________ This signature is intentionally blank

10-29-2008, 11:07 AM	#3
Tony M Global Moderator Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Here Posts: 6,156	This might be a study to take a while. I just started another game in play-out mode with the following batting strategy. Swing away until I get a batter on base. And then only use the "Hit And Run" option until bases are empty/inning over. This was the second inning of my R league game. Mendoza stole all the way from 1st to 2nd to 3rd to home on a three pitch swinging strikeout. 270 yards of steal without a hit to run to. And the fact that the catcher failed to tag a stealing runner despite the fact the ball was signed, sealed and delivered straight to his glove. Attached Images __________________ This signature is intentionally blank Last edited by Tony M; 10-29-2008 at 11:08 AM.

10-29-2008, 11:44 AM	#4
satchel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Ft Smith Ark. USA Posts: 2,681	Cool to see a steal of home, I've never seen one yet, but I just watch computer-managed games. Did get my first triple play the other day. __________________ JL Commish NPBL Rhode Island Reds ’33 ’34 ’35 TCBA San Francisco Railbornes ’74 ’76 ’77 ’78 FL New Orleans Black Sox ’56 ’57 ’58 ’59

10-29-2008, 12:15 PM	#5
endgame Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 16,842	For general review, the distinction between the two is grey at best, but still exists. The runner IS planning to go on a hit and run and, as a result - unless you have a very good contact hitter at the plate - will amount to a play based on his STE ability alone as the type and speed of the pitch don't weigh into the result. The run and hit, while not documented very clearly in baseball literature OR in the manual is a tandem operation between the runner and batter coordinated to hit the hole the runner is creating IF the pitch is one the batter can direct into that location. The game doesn't state whether the batter's INT or his CON is being utilized in that style of baserunning, but both are unlikely as the location and result of the play are determined earlier in the logic. I'm not ready to say a problem exists. I do support the idea that on a Hit and Run, the likelihood of a runner being thrown out would be greater. Here's a link and a pic. In Baseball, What is a Hit and Run? Attached Images __________________ "Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett _____________________________________________ Last edited by endgame; 10-29-2008 at 12:17 PM.

10-30-2008, 11:42 PM	#10
ccaranna Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 31	I'm not saying anything groundbreaking here, but I always felt that the hit and run was used when you had a slow runner on first and a good contact hitter at bat in order to decrease the likelihood of hitting into a double play. If the hitter gets a hit, then you've got runners on the corners. If he grounds out (to the right side, hopefully) you've got a man on second. I use the run and hit when I've got a speedy runner on first and an average to below average contact hitter at the plate. I don't use it much, but when I do, I'm confident the runner has a good chance at stealing second and it doesn't really matter if the batter makes contact or not. Ultimately, this is really no different than a straight steal except your forcing the batter to swing. To me, the run and hit doesn't really have much purpose, since if the runner feels he can steal 2nd pretty easily, it potentially wastes an at-bat for the hitter because he's forced to swing at a pitch he may not want to. It's better to just take the pitch and focus on getting something you want to hit once the runner makes it into 2nd. For me, the only time the run and hit makes sense is if I'm gunning to score a run from first with 2 outs, but then the hitter has to get a hit in order for that to happen. Last edited by ccaranna; 10-30-2008 at 11:44 PM.

10-29-2008, 10:23 AM	#2
Curtis Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Watertown, New York Posts: 4,567	I agree with your general observation. Back in OotPB2006 I twice questioned whether 'Hit and Run' and 'Run and Hit' were being implemented properly and was twice assured (once by the community and once by Markus) that it was. I wish you better luck than I had. As a related issue, 'Run and Hit' seems to act like a straight forced steal event. I gave up using it because the batter never swings and the pitch is always a called strike. In the days of my youth (the 1970s) the usual thing was for batters to swing when they knew a stolen base attempt was coming. The theory was that swinging threw the catcher off by a fraction and thereby delayed his throw slightly. Apparently this is no longer practiced in real baseball, but I would sure like to see it in the game. It really annoys me that every time my baserunner breaks for second he's giving the pitcher a free strike. I guess seeing that runner go out of the corner of his eye must concentrate the pitcher's mind something wonderful.

10-29-2008, 04:23 PM	#7
Leatherfut Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 59	Hi All, Weird. I get totally different result than what's been described. I have 4-1/2 seasons under my belt now, playing out most of my games and I use the hit and run quite a bit (probably more than conventional wisdom would suggest) and I think it works pretty well. The usual result is a ground out, followed by a single, in which the runner goes to third. The batter misses occasionally, sometimes there's a fly ball or line drive. My only triple play occurred when I had two men on and my batter hit a line drive. I've never tried to do a hit and run with a man only on third so I don't know about that. As a strategy note, hit and run is generally when a man is on first and you want to get him into scoring position. My thinking is, "I'm hoping for a hit, but I expect a ground out, getting the runner to second." Hit and run with two outs isn't very good strategy. Sometimes I'll try with first and second, sometimes with first and third, in which only the man on first runs. I can't believe the game lets a lone guy on third run on that play. Regarding the squeeze play: I've done this quite a bit too and it seems pretty realistic to me. Probably half the time it results in a sacrifice bunt, sometimes a missed bunt or popped up. regards, Frank

11-08-2008, 08:35 PM	#15
Curtis Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Watertown, New York Posts: 4,567	Or it might be small sample size. I got exasperated with it and quit doing it in favor of Hit and Run. Maybe if I'd stuck with it my results would've turned around.