I Know Player Dev Isn't Broken...

ovccsteve · 09-19-2008, 10:22 PM

and players ratings don't change overnight, but my 33-year-old setup reliever (a career closer) was a 79 (out of 80) on Opening Day and is a 30 on April 25th. Sure glad I signed him to a two-year extension based on the fact that stuff like this is impossible...

Again, the fact is I've been watching multiple players of all different ages do this every year. (Thankfully, I traded the 33-year-old first baseman the year before he went from a 70 to a 21. Not so lucky with the reliever.)

Russ · 09-19-2008, 11:02 PM

Could you hold on for one second while I find one or two real life examples in the the last 120 years to prove that it happens?

ovccsteve · 09-19-2008, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ

Could you hold on for one second while I find one or two real life examples in the the last 120 years to prove that it happens?

Nice. But I've got probably over twenty in five. At least ten on one team in a four year stretch. (Posted six of em, quoted two more, didn't mention the other two.) All-Stars are regularly becoming crap in days. But it's not really happening, or so I'm told...

jaguar8311 · 09-19-2008, 11:08 PM

this man speaks the truth, just started and Verlander and Mauer(both on my team) turned **** just within a few months

Russ · 09-19-2008, 11:08 PM

That's kind of what I'm saying. The reason people remember players like Kevin Maas is because they're very rare. The rate of this happening in OOTP, I agree, is way too high.

The Wolf · 09-19-2008, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ

The rate of this happening in OOTP, I agree, is way too high.

"

Goodsox · 09-19-2008, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ

That's kind of what I'm saying. The reason people remember players like Kevin Maas is because they're very rare. The rate of this happening in OOTP, I agree, is way too high.

Totally agree. In my historical solo league, Barry Bonds, hit 34 home runs in his second season with me and then just dropped off the face of the earth. He is now rated 1 star in his 3rd year. I also had the same thing happen to Tony Gwynn, Orel Hershiser, and Frank Thomas on my team within a 6 year span. This happens far too often. I have the player development randomness set to the lowest possible setting

This frustrates me to no end.

muns13 · 09-20-2008, 01:50 AM

In my online league tonight, I had my leadoff hitter who is 24 years old who had 100 rating in contact (we play with scouting off) drop down to 36 rating in contact in one season (we sim the entire season in one night).

A 70 point drop off is a bit extreme if you ask me to be saying something isnt going on somewhere here.....

Also to note, i lost the pennant by 2 games, and it makes this a bit more frustrating

Alan T · 09-20-2008, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by muns13

In my online league tonight, I had my leadoff hitter who is 24 years old who had 100 rating in contact (we play with scouting off) drop down to 36 rating in contact in one season (we sim the entire season in one night).

A 70 point drop off is a bit extreme if you ask me to be saying something isnt going on somewhere here.....

Also to note, i lost the pennant by 2 games, and it makes this a bit more frustrating

It probably is important to mention that injuries are also off too for this league. So the drastic ratings drop wasn't from a bad injury during the season.

Markus Heinsohn · 09-20-2008, 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ovccsteve

and players ratings don't change overnight, but my 33-year-old setup reliever (a career closer) was a 79 (out of 80) on Opening Day and is a 30 on April 25th. Sure glad I signed him to a two-year extension based on the fact that stuff like this is impossible...

Again, the fact is I've been watching multiple players of all different ages do this every year. (Thankfully, I traded the 33-year-old first baseman the year before he went from a 70 to a 21. Not so lucky with the reliever.)

Are you talking talent or current rating? If it's current, then these guy probably started aging real quick... also, scouting off or on?

The "overall rating" is not a good way to judge the ratings anyway, since this one includes player performance (stats) as well... also, it is a rating relative to the other players in that league at the same position.

So, when discussing rating drops, we need to see if a) there was an injury and b) which 'real' ratings dropped. In OOTP 9 it is impossible that a young pitcher for example goes from 7/7/7 (1-10 scale) talent to 4/4/4 in a few weeks. I am talking talent here, not current ratings. These 33-year olds can change their current ratings rather quick if scouting is off and they happen to be aging and being fast agers. History is full of examples of these kind of players.

Markus Heinsohn · 09-20-2008, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan T

It probably is important to mention that injuries are also off too for this league. So the drastic ratings drop wasn't from a bad injury during the season.

When injuries are off then OOTP 'simulates' injuries in the development with sudden drops in order to keep the system straight. Otherwise it would be messy since too few player would suffer talent drops and the average quality of all players in the league would rise over time, which is unrealistic...

f.montoya · 09-20-2008, 07:12 AM

I'm a 95% historical guy myself. I have one solo fictional league but besides that I play historical. That said, I need to warn you guys that OOTP does not know names. Well, maybe it knows Verlander. But seriously, go to the Picture & Player Options in the game and take a look at what you have Talent Change Randomness set to. Try reducing it to a lower number and run some tests until you are happy with fewer random talent changes occuring in your league. Also, if you are dead set on players like Bonds following real career curves, enable the "recalc" feature.

robc · 09-20-2008, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Are you talking talent or current rating? If it's current, then these guy probably started aging real quick... also, scouting off or on?

The "overall rating" is not a good way to judge the ratings anyway, since this one includes player performance (stats) as well... also, it is a rating relative to the other players in that league at the same position.

So, when discussing rating drops, we need to see if a) there was an injury and b) which 'real' ratings dropped. In OOTP 9 it is impossible that a young pitcher for example goes from 7/7/7 (1-10 scale) talent to 4/4/4 in a few weeks. I am talking talent here, not current ratings. These 33-year olds can change their current ratings rather quick if scouting is off and they happen to be aging and being fast agers. History is full of examples of these kind of players.

I'm probably missing something obvious but what is 'talent' vs their current ratings? I don't recall seeing anything specifiying talent.

ovccsteve · 09-20-2008, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Are you talking talent or current rating? If it's current, then these guy probably started aging real quick... also, scouting off or on?

The "overall rating" is not a good way to judge the ratings anyway, since this one includes player performance (stats) as well... also, it is a rating relative to the other players in that league at the same position.

So, when discussing rating drops, we need to see if a) there was an injury and b) which 'real' ratings dropped. In OOTP 9 it is impossible that a young pitcher for example goes from 7/7/7 (1-10 scale) talent to 4/4/4 in a few weeks. I am talking talent here, not current ratings. These 33-year olds can change their current ratings rather quick if scouting is off and they happen to be aging and being fast agers. History is full of examples of these kind of players.

Okay, here's a historical challenge for you. In the history of baseball, name a player who put together a season with an OPS over .960 and a VORP of 67 in his age 23 season, followed by a .897/44 season at 24, and was washed up and out of baseball--with no injuries, by 29. Who, after OBP's of .346, .376, .352 in his age 22-24 seasons, never had OBP above .314 in his final four years. Having trouble? Meet Riley Thompstone, one of the "off-the-table" stars of my New Orleans dynasty. (fictional league, injuries and scouting on)

Mattymo · 09-20-2008, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robc

I'm probably missing something obvious but what is 'talent' vs their current ratings? I don't recall seeing anything specifiying talent.

Talent = potential

robc · 09-20-2008, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mattymo

Talent = potential

Thank you

bailey · 09-20-2008, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ovccsteve

Okay, here's a historical challenge for you.

Bob Robertson?

It's kinda hard because Baseball Reference doesn't have VORP or list every injury, but it's not hard to find guys who do well at 23-24 and washed up by 30. I think injuries in 'real life' occur far more often than they do in OOTP, so maybe your guy just didn't tell the manager he was in pain.

muns13 · 09-20-2008, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

When injuries are off then OOTP 'simulates' injuries in the development with sudden drops in order to keep the system straight. Otherwise it would be messy since too few player would suffer talent drops and the average quality of all players in the league would rise over time, which is unrealistic...

Ok as much fun as I have had/am having with OOTP, and im trying to make my point without being an ass here, but this answer makes no sense to me what so ever.

So what your saying is that, we have the option to play with Injuries off, so that guys dont get hurt and possibly kill a career, however, the game will gladly take a dump on a few guys and "simulate" and injury to keep the talent levels even? That dump just did kill a carrer as the guy went from 100 contact to a 36. He hits 357. and .350 the first 2 months of the season and then hits in the .100's four out of the next five months after the "simulated" injury... That might not be everyones technical defination of an injury (with the injury button turned off) as he can still technically play and still be put into games, but it sure seems like a career killer to me.

Whats the point of having a no Injury option then? Maybe I am just missing something here? Isnt playing the game with no injuries unrealstic to begin with?

This is just kinda frustrating to me and im just trying to make some kind of sense out of this.

Also as I see the other thread is closed where people were saying that there are still random talent influxes or talent just dying, and the answer seems to be that it doesnt happen anymore in ootp9 or its bad luck or something. How can you on one hand say that it doesnt happen anymore or that it takes a while for it to happen in this version and then come back in this thread and say that it happens and it happens fast for a specifc reason?

Is there a be better way to impliment this, not saying it wouldnt be near impossible, cause I dont and cant code. Maybe having the ratings DIE after the season if people play with the injury button turned off?? I dont know? Like I said just frustrated.......

bailey · 09-20-2008, 06:42 PM

I think Markus said that it was necessary to have 'simulated' injuries in an 'injuries-off' league in order to keep the overall league talent from increasing unrealistically. Nevertheless, he probably never anticipated anyone playing the whole season in 1 sim the way FOOL does it. So, the solution would be to postpone the ratings hit until after the season was over. That way, FOOL can be happy and Markus can be happy with his model, too. Whether that is easy to do, or even possible for the next patch is not known.

ovccsteve · 09-20-2008, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bailey

Bob Robertson?

It's kinda hard because Baseball Reference doesn't have VORP or list every injury, but it's not hard to find guys who do well at 23-24 and washed up by 30. I think injuries in 'real life' occur far more often than they do in OOTP, so maybe your guy just didn't tell the manager he was in pain.

Problem is, it is happening with such frequency that I'm having trouble coming up with "hidden narratives' to explain all these guys falling off the table.

And he wasn't washed up by 30. He was a lineup hole by 27 and just managed to hang on until 28. He was out of the game at 29. And the first baseman/thirdbaseman on the same team had VORPs of 45, 41, 33 at ages 23, 25 & 26 (limited by injuries during age 24 season, but had no residual impact). VORP would have been higher at 26 but he missed two months with a broken foot in the middle of the season. No impact on rest of that year. But, in spite of no more injuries, he never had another VORP over 0.3 and was so washed up by age 29 that he hit .176 in Single A.

And did I mention the rightfielder on that same team two years later? At 24, in less than 400 AB his VORP was 32. The next year, as a regular it was 68. Ages 26 through 28, which every study shows are the normal "peak years"? VORPs of 14, 6, and 7, playing full time.

How about one of the other talented young outfielders on that team? Ages 21-23 VORP's: 31, 15 (some injuries), 33. Ages 24-26: 8.5, -2.2, 1.6. Out baseball at 27.

And I could go on, with the one team I was managing. (By the way, the left fielder has gone on to be arguably the greatest hitter in league history.)

Like I said, it's a good thing I know the player development system is working because otherwise I'd say it has a serious bug in there somewhere.

09-19-2008, 10:22 PM	#1
ovccsteve All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Sanford, NC Posts: 571	I Know Player Dev Isn't Broken... and players ratings don't change overnight, but my 33-year-old setup reliever (a career closer) was a 79 (out of 80) on Opening Day and is a 30 on April 25th. Sure glad I signed him to a two-year extension based on the fact that stuff like this is impossible... Again, the fact is I've been watching multiple players of all different ages do this every year. (Thankfully, I traded the 33-year-old first baseman the year before he went from a 70 to a 21. Not so lucky with the reliever.)

09-19-2008, 11:02 PM	#2
Russ All Star Starter Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Essex HON! Posts: 1,923 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Could you hold on for one second while I find one or two real life examples in the the last 120 years to prove that it happens? __________________ If you don't love Russ, you don't love America. This post brought to you by Carl's Jr.

09-19-2008, 11:08 PM	#5
Russ All Star Starter Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Essex HON! Posts: 1,923 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	That's kind of what I'm saying. The reason people remember players like Kevin Maas is because they're very rare. The rate of this happening in OOTP, I agree, is way too high. __________________ If you don't love Russ, you don't love America. This post brought to you by Carl's Jr.

09-20-2008, 01:50 AM	#8
muns13 Bat Boy Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 15	In my online league tonight, I had my leadoff hitter who is 24 years old who had 100 rating in contact (we play with scouting off) drop down to 36 rating in contact in one season (we sim the entire season in one night). A 70 point drop off is a bit extreme if you ask me to be saying something isnt going on somewhere here..... Also to note, i lost the pennant by 2 games, and it makes this a bit more frustrating Last edited by muns13; 09-20-2008 at 01:54 AM.

09-20-2008, 07:12 AM	#12
f.montoya Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,069	I'm a 95% historical guy myself. I have one solo fictional league but besides that I play historical. That said, I need to warn you guys that OOTP does not know names. Well, maybe it knows Verlander. But seriously, go to the Picture & Player Options in the game and take a look at what you have Talent Change Randomness set to. Try reducing it to a lower number and run some tests until you are happy with fewer random talent changes occuring in your league. Also, if you are dead set on players like Bonds following real career curves, enable the "recalc" feature. __________________ Fidel Montoya Asahi2 Baseball ex-Commissioner(Historical League Since 2004) www.allsimbaseball.com (OOTP web hosting - Customized sites for online leagues - Sign up, Connect OOTP and Play!) Share Your Mods - Free, unlimited and easy to upload to share your Mods instantly(free site registration required)

09-19-2008, 11:08 PM	#4
jaguar8311 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 213	this man speaks the truth, just started and Verlander and Mauer(both on my team) turned **** just within a few months

09-20-2008, 06:42 PM	#19
bailey Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 3,330	I think Markus said that it was necessary to have 'simulated' injuries in an 'injuries-off' league in order to keep the overall league talent from increasing unrealistically. Nevertheless, he probably never anticipated anyone playing the whole season in 1 sim the way FOOL does it. So, the solution would be to postpone the ratings hit until after the season was over. That way, FOOL can be happy and Markus can be happy with his model, too. Whether that is easy to do, or even possible for the next patch is not known.