Saves, blown saves, and position players (or PING: Cryomaniac)

[Sdpm100]

Okay, since the All-Star Game, I've been messing around with seeing what, if any, penalties OOTP puts on throwing position players on the mound. All right, just David Wright, but hey-ho.
The reference in the thread title comes from a post this thread - http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...20-post16.html
I messed it all up in the thread and I still can't locate an actual occurrence to answer the question, but here's what OOTP does.


Now although the MLB rules aren't completely clear on the rule, Wikipedia says you can't get a save if you've blown a save already.
I really can't believe somewhere this has never happened, but it doesn't seem to have been documented online. I'm sure some baseball statistician will know the answer, but they don't seem to have online websites to ask.

Also there are a few bugs in the game log, in that when I moved Wright back to 3B after giving up the tying run in the 9th it doesn't get listed, nor does it when I brought him back to the mound to get the final out in the 10th. And it lists him player 3B and P twice in the box score.

[Tony M]

Hmm... interesting because normally if you blow a save you'll either finish the game (thus getting a W or L) or you'll be removed. Wright obviously came back into the game from the field and thus earned another shot at it.

The game counts them wrong anyway, it multiplies them up when it shouldn't. I once kept a pitcher in RF and bought him in to face lefties and he ended up with 9 Holds in one game...

[Sdpm100]

Originally Posted by Tony M

Hmm... interesting because normally if you blow a save you'll either finish the game (thus getting a W or L) or you'll be removed. Wright obviously came back into the game from the field and thus earned another shot at it.

The game counts them wrong anyway, it multiplies them up when it shouldn't. I once kept a pitcher in RF and bought him in to face lefties and he ended up with 9 Holds in one game...

Oh. The saves and blown saves are correct in this case.

[eriqjaffe]

He shouldn't have gotten a save since he clearly didn't pitch effectively.

[Sdpm100]

Originally Posted by eriqjaffe

He shouldn't have gotten a save since he clearly didn't pitch effectively.

Great, thank you for the info. So it's an error in the game. I was just interested; it's not worth the hassle to change the scoring logic for something that almost never happens.

[Cryomaniac]

I figured OOTP would do that. As to whether it's right in real life, we'd need to find an example, and that might involve looking to the 19th century.

The scoring logic should be changed if it's wrong.

[zekester91]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

I figured OOTP would do that. As to whether it's right in real life, we'd need to find an example, and that might involve looking to the 19th century.

The scoring logic should be changed if it's wrong.

You might be able to find an example in a Highschool or collage game, any pro example would be before the "save" was invented. The rule is rather vague on what should happen in this situation, but OOTP does have a slight problem with pitcher that move from the mound to the feild and back to the mound again. Possibly even making it possible to get the win and the save, which I don't think has ever come up in a pro game.

[TribeFanInNC]

The only thing close I could think of was this game: July 22, 1986 New York Mets at Cincinnati Reds Play by Play and Box Score - Baseball-Reference.com

There was a fight late in the game with ejections, then it went to extra innings. Roger McDowell and Jesse Orosco basically just flipped between the outfield and pitching for several innings. But McDowell pitched the last two innings, picking up the win, so there was no save and nobody blew a save either.

I'll keep looking.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by zekester91

You might be able to find an example in a Highschool or collage game, any pro example would be before the "save" was invented. The rule is rather vague on what should happen in this situation, but OOTP does have a slight problem with pitcher that move from the mound to the feild and back to the mound again. Possibly even making it possible to get the win and the save, which I don't think has ever come up in a pro game.

You can't get a win and the save. One of the save criteria is "is not the winning pitcher".

From the wikipedia article:

# He is the finishing pitcher in a game won by his team
# He is not the winning pitcher
# He is credited with at least ⅓ of an inning pitched
# He satisfies one of the following conditions:
## He enters the game with a lead of no more than three runs and pitches for at least one inning
## He enters the game, regardless of the count, with the potential tying run either on base, at bat or on deck
## He pitches for at least three innings

Also, it says this:

If that same pitcher also allows the go-ahead run to reach base and score, and if his team does not come back to tie or gain a lead in the game, said pitcher will be charged with both the loss (as in any other similar situation) and a 'blown save.' The blown save is not an officially recognized statistic, but many sources keep track of them. Blown saves have been tracked since 1988. Once a pitcher blows a save, he is no longer eligible to earn a save in that game (since the lead that he was trying to "save" has disappeared), although he can earn a win if his team regains the lead. For this reason, most closers' records include a few wins. Closers make the majority of their appearances with their team ahead, so a loss usually includes a blown save.

It doesn't actually say want happens if he were to go into the field and pitch again later, in a different save situation.

[TribeFanInNC]

Here is a ref I found where someone has already made some lists of where guys showed up with positions P and OF played in the same game. Maybe this could lead somewhere, but I don't have time to follow it up at the moment. Maybe someone else could take the ball here.

Stat of the Day Pitching and playing the outfield - in the same game!

[Sdpm100]

Originally Posted by TribeFanInNC

Here is a ref I found where someone has already made some lists of where guys showed up with positions P and OF played in the same game. Maybe this could lead somewhere, but I don't have time to follow it up at the moment. Maybe someone else could take the ball here.

Stat of the Day Pitching and playing the outfield - in the same game!

I actually found this Baseball Toaster: The Griddle : More on the Richards-Cantillon Gambit (Guest Report!) and from the exterior link at the bottom of the entry I looked through each one, and there are none that fit from the majors. I'm still certain it's happened somewhere, and some statistician must know because it could happen. I think, personally, we actually have the answer although it's not marked out 100% to the situation. Probably didn't think there'd be weird managers like me.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by Sdpm100

I actually found this Baseball Toaster: The Griddle : More on the Richards-Cantillon Gambit (Guest Report!) and from the exterior link at the bottom of the entry I looked through each one, and there are none that fit from the majors.

I see most of the times it's been done was to get a platoon advantage. That's why teams need players like Pat Venditte

Originally Posted by Sdpm100

I'm still certain it's happened somewhere, and some statistician must know because it could happen. I think, personally, we actually have the answer although it's not marked out 100% to the situation. Probably didn't think there'd be weird managers like me.

Someone should email an official scorer.

[bababui]

The reason why this will never happen is because a playerr shifting from a position to pitcher will not be allowed to warmup and will therefor a)be much more likely to get injured and b)be much more likely to get shelled.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by bababui

The reason why this will never happen is because a playerr shifting from a position to pitcher will not be allowed to warmup and will therefor a)be much more likely to get injured and b)be much more likely to get shelled.

One of the links mentions that the guy was allowed 8 warm up pitches.

[bababui]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

One of the links mentions that the guy was allowed 8 warm up pitches.

Actually, thats at the umpires discretion and for 99% of pitchers is nowhere enough pitches to get ones arm loose. There is a reason that no one does this.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by bababui

Actually, thats at the umpires discretion and for 99% of pitchers is nowhere enough pitches to get ones arm loose. There is a reason that no one does this.

I know, but if they had already pitched in the game (which is kind of the point of this post) then their arm would be at least a little loose.

[Sdpm100]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

I see most of the times it's been done was to get a platoon advantage. That's why teams need players like Pat Venditte

That's called a "clone and sign" deal I think.

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

Someone should email an official scorer.

I'd love to clear it up completely by doing that, but I don't know any.

Originally Posted by bababui

Actually, thats at the umpires discretion and for 99% of pitchers is nowhere enough pitches to get ones arm loose. There is a reason that no one does this.

Okay, forget that I'm using a position player to pitch for a bit of fun and testing the game, and instead I brought an actual pitcher. Then it could happen. Instead of D. Wright read B. Wagner.

[OldFatGuy]

From the Official MLB Rules:

<DIR><DIR>10.19 SAVES FOR RELIEF PITCHERS
</DIR></DIR>A save is a statistic credited to a relief pitcher, as set forth in this Rule 10.19.
The official scorer shall credit a pitcher with a save when such pitcher meets all four of the following conditions:
<DIR><DIR><DIR><DIR>(a) He is the finishing pitcher in a game won by his team;
(b) He is not the winning pitcher;
(c) He is credited with at least ⅓ of an inning pitched; and
(d) He satisfies one of the following conditions:
</DIR>(1) He enters the game with a lead of no more than three runs and pitches for at least one inning;
</DIR></DIR></DIR><DIR><DIR><DIR>(2) He enters the game, regardless of the count, with the potential tying run either on base, or at bat or on deck (that is, the potential tying run is either already on base or is one of the first two batters he faces); or
</DIR></DIR></DIR><DIR><DIR><DIR>(3) He pitches for at least three innings.
</DIR></DIR></DIR>

It states you can't get a win and a save in the same game, but it doesn't say you can't get a blown save and a save in the same game. So, it appears he should get the blown save AND the save.

EDIT: WTF???? I just copied this from the official rules, why is it so small??? Anyone know???

[OldFatGuy]

Well, I don't know why its so small in the above post, but if you want to view the Official Rules of scoring, it can be found below. It's in PDF format, so you can even save it to your own computer if you want to.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y20...ial_scorer.pdf

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

It states you can't get a win and a save in the same game, but it doesn't say you can't get a blown save and a save in the same game. So, it appears he should get the blown save AND the save.

That was my interpretation.

EDIT: WTF???? I just copied this from the official rules, why is it so small??? Anyone know???

I can still read it.