Bonds better than Ruth? Pt. 2

Modern Relic · 10-12-2002, 09:02 PM

Saw this article on the ESPN site:

A specific LINK.

Does anybody agree with this guy?

My uninformed opinion says he's full o' crap.

Steve Kuffrey · 10-12-2002, 09:14 PM

A crock......

vtbub · 10-12-2002, 09:33 PM

Whitlock as a whole is a crock.

Specs · 10-12-2002, 09:37 PM

Is there a reason that this was on Page 2, ESPN's COMEDY section?

Crapshoot · 10-13-2002, 01:25 AM

I realize its heresay to consider one of baseball's legends,
but why is it crock ? Ruth did play in an era which was severly
limited in the sources of talent..

Jason Moyer · 10-13-2002, 09:16 AM

2001 (and maybe 2002 is better, haven't crunched all the stats yet) was the greatest offensive performance in the history of baseball, and that's including era and park adjustments.

Career-wise, I'm not even speculating until Barry is finished piling up 50 win share seasons. Right now I'd give the nod to Babe if you don't consider that he played in a less competitive era. If Barry pulls off 3 more 50-ish win share type seasons tho, all bets are off.

Regardless, Bonds is one of the few players who has truly dominated his era, even without his historical 2001/2002 seasons. Here are the win share leaders by decade (since post-deadball):

1920's - 413 - Babe Ruth
1930's - 323 - Lou Gehrig and Mel Ott
1940's - 290 - Ted Williams
1950's - 317 - Mickey Mantle
1960's - 340 - Hank Aaron
1970's - 315 - Joe Morgan
1980's - 289 - Rickey Henderson
1990's - 351 - Barry Bonds

That's pretty elite company. It may not have been obvious, but even before the creatine Barry was dominating to an extent that hadn't been seen since Mr. Ruth himself. Fun stat #2 - 2nd best player of the 90's? Craig Biggio...

Jason

vtbub · 10-13-2002, 03:31 PM

I say he's a crock as a whole. Read his column on Chris Webber.

As the Ruth-Bonds debate goes, Ruth has the huge advantage of doing something that had never been done before. He broke his own Home Run record by 35 in 1920. I'm not taking anything away from Barry, tremendous numbers. To claim that Ruth's numbers are tainted is foolish however, the argument can be made that Bonds numbers are tainted by the addition of two waves of expansion pitching. IMHO, both are foolish, you play with the cards you are dealt.

BTW, I've read in some places that Ruth's lineage was mixed race and he had some African-American blood in him.

They both raise the bar extremely high, but the nod goes to Ruth.

twins15 · 10-13-2002, 05:07 PM

Keep in mind Ruth also played at a time when offensive numbers got much better than what they were. I don't know whop I would choose as the better player, but I would maybe say Bonds. Bonds has had players such as Kent and Santiago to protect him, Ruth has had the likes of Lou Gehrig. I do think that it is closer than a lot of you think.

vtbub · 10-13-2002, 05:16 PM

Twins15,

No doubt that Bonds is a top 3 player of all-time. I guess I didn't make that clear. Even though the numbers aren't as good, I'd say that Willie Mays is better than anybody else.

Jason Moyer · 10-13-2002, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ron Juckett
the argument can be made that Bonds numbers are tainted by the addition of two waves of expansion pitching.

You can also argue that Pedro Martinez's stats are tainted by two waves of expansion hitting, but that's wavering off topic here.

In 1920 there were 20,156,352 white males living in the United States between the ages of 18-44. There were 16 teams in the major leagues. That comes out to 1,259,772 eligible participants per team.

In 2000 there were 56,442,156 males in the United States between the ages of 18-44. There are 30 major league teams. Not counting Cuba, the Dominican Republic, Japan, the Koreas, and China, that comes out to 1,881,405 eligible participants per team.

In theory the available talent pool for baseball is over 67% deeper than it was in 1920, even excluding foreign players. Baseball could expand to 44 teams and still have a larger population base to draw from than it did in 1920, not including the millions of available foreign players.

Jason

Steve Kuffrey · 10-13-2002, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ron Juckett
Twins15,

No doubt that Bonds is a top 3 player of all-time. I guess I didn't make that clear. Even though the numbers aren't as good, I'd say that Willie Mays is better than anybody else.

Bonds would be lucky to make my 3rd team all-time.....

A glance here...

Or here....

Shows a number of players easily better.

vtbub · 10-13-2002, 06:03 PM

Steve,

I assume you mean Bonds.

Steve Kuffrey · 10-13-2002, 06:14 PM

Corrected it now.....thanks

Cooleyvol · 10-13-2002, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ron Juckett
Twins15,

No doubt that Bonds is a top 3 player of all-time. I guess I didn't make that clear. Even though the numbers aren't as good, I'd say that Willie Mays is better than anybody else.

You MUST be kidding, right?

That's absurd.

Ruth, Aaron, and Williams alone keep him out of that, and I could go on for a WHILE before I list Barry's name.

Steve Kuffrey · 10-13-2002, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cooleyvol
You MUST be kidding, right?

That's absurd.

Ruth, Aaron, and Williams alone keep him out of that, and I could go on for a WHILE before I list Barry's name.

Agree 100%, he's a top 100 I'd say....but top 3.....p'leeze.......there's probably 3 playing now that are better..IMO.

vtbub · 10-13-2002, 06:52 PM

We'll see what you all think when he retires.

lynchjm24 · 10-13-2002, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Steve Kuffrey
Agree 100%, he's a top 100 I'd say....but top 3.....p'leeze.......there's probably 3 playing now that are better..IMO.

You've lost your mind. 3 playing that are better?

This is pure nonsense.

Steve Kuffrey · 10-13-2002, 06:59 PM

No, it is an opinion.....just as you have yours.

Andy · 10-13-2002, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lynchjm24
You've lost your mind. 3 playing that are better?

This is pure nonsense.

Actually this post is nonsense.

This forum would be very boring if everyone's opinions were the same.

lynchjm24 · 10-13-2002, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Steve Kuffrey
No, it is an opinion.....just as you have yours.

Opinions are all fine and dandy if they are based on fact. When you say silly things like there are 3 players today who are better than Bonds. That is just plain dumb. You would have to ignore every statistical fact over the past 2 seasons to make a statement like that. There is only player who is even in the same stratosphere that he is.

10-12-2002, 09:02 PM	#1
Modern Relic All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 1,266	Bonds better than Ruth? Pt. 2 Saw this article on the ESPN site: A specific LINK. Does anybody agree with this guy? My uninformed opinion says he's full o' crap. __________________ American Folklore Baseball League (closed): Commissioner/GM - Mudville Nine (ruled!) Former member of Boys of Summer: GM - St. Louis Browns (doormats!) Former member of the OTBL: GM - Gashouse Gorillas (also ruled!) "People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." Rogers Hornsby

10-13-2002, 09:16 AM	#6
Jason Moyer Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 5,108	2001 (and maybe 2002 is better, haven't crunched all the stats yet) was the greatest offensive performance in the history of baseball, and that's including era and park adjustments. Career-wise, I'm not even speculating until Barry is finished piling up 50 win share seasons. Right now I'd give the nod to Babe if you don't consider that he played in a less competitive era. If Barry pulls off 3 more 50-ish win share type seasons tho, all bets are off. Regardless, Bonds is one of the few players who has truly dominated his era, even without his historical 2001/2002 seasons. Here are the win share leaders by decade (since post-deadball): 1920's - 413 - Babe Ruth 1930's - 323 - Lou Gehrig and Mel Ott 1940's - 290 - Ted Williams 1950's - 317 - Mickey Mantle 1960's - 340 - Hank Aaron 1970's - 315 - Joe Morgan 1980's - 289 - Rickey Henderson 1990's - 351 - Barry Bonds That's pretty elite company. It may not have been obvious, but even before the creatine Barry was dominating to an extent that hadn't been seen since Mr. Ruth himself. Fun stat #2 - 2nd best player of the 90's? Craig Biggio... Jason __________________ "I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses." -- Tom House "I was very fortunate to have a pitching coach by the name of Tom House...Tom, I really miss those days that we spent in the weight room and out on the field working together." -- Nolan Ryan's HoF Induction Speech

10-13-2002, 05:07 PM	#8
twins15 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Area 51 Posts: 4,792	Keep in mind Ruth also played at a time when offensive numbers got much better than what they were. I don't know whop I would choose as the better player, but I would maybe say Bonds. Bonds has had players such as Kent and Santiago to protect him, Ruth has had the likes of Lou Gehrig. I do think that it is closer than a lot of you think. __________________ "Ah man we're just hungry man" - Dovonte Edwards Bismarck Boy Scouts of the OTBL - league yes-man Ross Gload at baseball-reference.com Book Quotes and Book Lists

10-13-2002, 06:14 PM	#13
Steve Kuffrey Administrator Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: S.E. TN - Georgia born and raised Posts: 17,036	Corrected it now.....thanks __________________ Steve Kuffrey DABS Atlanta Braves - 2008 Eastern Division Champ *DBLC Atlanta Braves - 2011, 2014 East Division Champ, 2012, 2013 NL Wildcard Baseball Maelstrom-Montreal Expos-2013 Tourney winner, 2014 WC Team Sparky's League - Tampa Bay D'Rays Epicenter Baseball League - Astros 2014 The CBL Rewind - Phillies '95

10-13-2002, 06:59 PM	#18
Steve Kuffrey Administrator Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: S.E. TN - Georgia born and raised Posts: 17,036	No, it is an opinion.....just as you have yours. __________________ Steve Kuffrey DABS Atlanta Braves - 2008 Eastern Division Champ *DBLC Atlanta Braves - 2011, 2014 East Division Champ, 2012, 2013 NL Wildcard Baseball Maelstrom-Montreal Expos-2013 Tourney winner, 2014 WC Team Sparky's League - Tampa Bay D'Rays Epicenter Baseball League - Astros 2014 The CBL Rewind - Phillies '95

10-12-2002, 09:14 PM	#2
Steve Kuffrey Administrator Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: S.E. TN - Georgia born and raised Posts: 17,036	A crock...... __________________ Steve Kuffrey DABS Atlanta Braves - 2008 Eastern Division Champ *DBLC Atlanta Braves - 2011, 2014 East Division Champ, 2012, 2013 NL Wildcard Baseball Maelstrom-Montreal Expos-2013 Tourney winner, 2014 WC Team Sparky's League - Tampa Bay D'Rays Epicenter Baseball League - Astros 2014 The CBL Rewind - Phillies '95

10-12-2002, 09:33 PM	#3
vtbub Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Burlington, VT Posts: 143	Whitlock as a whole is a crock.

10-13-2002, 01:25 AM	#5
Crapshoot Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: watching: DArwin's missing link in action Posts: 3,112	I realize its heresay to consider one of baseball's legends, but why is it crock ? Ruth did play in an era which was severly limited in the sources of talent..

10-13-2002, 03:31 PM	#7
vtbub Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Burlington, VT Posts: 143	I say he's a crock as a whole. Read his column on Chris Webber. As the Ruth-Bonds debate goes, Ruth has the huge advantage of doing something that had never been done before. He broke his own Home Run record by 35 in 1920. I'm not taking anything away from Barry, tremendous numbers. To claim that Ruth's numbers are tainted is foolish however, the argument can be made that Bonds numbers are tainted by the addition of two waves of expansion pitching. IMHO, both are foolish, you play with the cards you are dealt. BTW, I've read in some places that Ruth's lineage was mixed race and he had some African-American blood in him. They both raise the bar extremely high, but the nod goes to Ruth.

10-13-2002, 05:16 PM	#9
vtbub Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Burlington, VT Posts: 143	Twins15, No doubt that Bonds is a top 3 player of all-time. I guess I didn't make that clear. Even though the numbers aren't as good, I'd say that Willie Mays is better than anybody else.

10-13-2002, 06:03 PM	#12
vtbub Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Burlington, VT Posts: 143	Steve, I assume you mean Bonds.

10-13-2002, 06:52 PM	#16
vtbub Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Burlington, VT Posts: 143	We'll see what you all think when he retires.