Talent changes are terrible...

[tcblcommish]

I know that I started another thread asking about talent changes and all I got is that things are what they are supposed to be and that things are in line with "REAL LIFE" Well, too bad because I am sick and tired of every damn player in my organization becoming crap. I am no longer going to use this anymore due to this.

After every draft, my players that are good become crap, the players that are crap don't get hardly anything in terms of some ind of talent change in the up side. I am sick and tired of scouting everyone with all of my scouts and having all the guys that I draft become losers.

I took the advice in that thread to scout more close and use all the scouts. Did that for the last 2 years and funny enough, it's the exact same. I modified the talent changes and again, the exact same. This is part of the game that is severely broken IMO. I honestly don't find the game fun at all when every time I get a message from a scout I know I just lost part of the future.

I am sure that I am going to get flamed by people in this thread but I wanted to know if people feel the same way I do about this.

[jerrycapo]

Originally Posted by tcblcommish

I know that I started another thread asking about talent changes and all I got is that things are what they are supposed to be and that things are in line with "REAL LIFE" Well, too bad because I am sick and tired of every damn player in my organization becoming crap. I am no longer going to use this anymore due to this.

After every draft, my players that are good become crap, the players that are crap don't get hardly anything in terms of some ind of talent change in the up side. I am sick and tired of scouting everyone with all of my scouts and having all the guys that I draft become losers.

I took the advice in that thread to scout more close and use all the scouts. Did that for the last 2 years and funny enough, it's the exact same. I modified the talent changes and again, the exact same. This is part of the game that is severely broken IMO. I honestly don't find the game fun at all when every time I get a message from a scout I know I just lost part of the future.

I am sure that I am going to get flamed by people in this thread but I wanted to know if people feel the same way I do about this.

If it is broke how would you fix it?

One of the biggest attractions to OOTP for me is how it models real life. The truth is more prospects are busts than gems in MLB. There are teams in real life like the Cincinnati Reds who have not developed a quality pitcher in probably the last ten years. If you ask them, I believe they would say that scouting is broken as well.

As it is always said, "it is your game." Don't like player development, turn it off. If you think something is broken, capture the data, compare it to current or past data, and prove your point. You may find that your perception is not the reality you think it is.

[Neags23]

Turn scouts off for a while. See what you think, then.

[Khrog]

Originally Posted by tcblcommish

I am sure that I am going to get flamed by people in this thread but I wanted to know if people feel the same way I do about this.

Well I'll try not to appear to flame you, but rather to help you out. I think you need to look perhaps at your management strategy. There are really only 2 options here. 1) You are REALLY unlucky. 2) You are managing your team poorly and playing guys over or under their optimal league level and stunting their potential growth.

The second option really is the most likely...look at the number of other players that are absolutely NOT having this issue! Something is different with your progress as opposed to others...you need to address whatever that is and I think that I just identified it for you.

[zukes]

Thanks for sharing, this definitely warranted a new thread!

People told you about real life in the other thread (and this one too) because it's true. Just because you draft a guy that seems good, it doesn't mean that he will be. Look back at some baseball drafts, it is THE most inexact process in pro sports.

It is not football where most of the players you draft end up in the league for at least a little while.

The NHL is more of a crapshoot than the NFL, but way more draft picks make the bigs than MLB as well.

I don't follow the NBA, but I think the draft there is only 2 rounds and most players get a shot as well.

Baseball drafts used to go until the teams didn;t want to draft anymore. Think about that for a second. How inexact is it when you are drafting the backup catcher from a high school in Boise Idaho?

I know it's frustrating, but the game is NOT broken, it very closely mirrors how it is supposed to be. Be thankful that you at least know the picks that are likely to be busts.

[injury log]

One of many interesting consequences of RonCo's research, posted in the previous thread on this topic, is that younger draftees are significantly riskier than old ones; they get hit by more talent changes, and talent changes are more often negative than positive. Recently I've had much more draft success by selecting 20-21 year old guys with some current ability, but perhaps only medium upside, instead of choosing raw 16-17 year olds with massive potential.

[CBL-Commish]

I think OOTP should be more like real life where you can draft a big stud pitcher in the first round like Beau Hale or Ben McDonald or Chris Smith or Mike Paradis or Richard Stahl or Josh Cenate or Scott Rice and just plug them into the rotation for 20 years and punch their ticket to the Hall of Fame.

[zukes]

Don't forget Todd Van Poppel

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by tcblcommish

I am sure that I am going to get flamed by people in this thread but I wanted to know if people feel the same way I do about this.

I'm not going to flame you but to answer your question, I do not feel the same way you do.

I've found that my league has a much more realistic mix of young and old players than in any previous version. My minor leaguers do develop and of course there are many busts, just like RL. I've been very happy with the way v2007 has done player development.

[statfreak]

Originally Posted by tcblcommish

I know that I started another thread asking about talent changes and all I got is that things are what they are supposed to be and that things are in line with "REAL LIFE" Well, too bad because I am sick and tired of every damn player in my organization becoming crap. I am no longer going to use this anymore due to this.

After every draft, my players that are good become crap, the players that are crap don't get hardly anything in terms of some ind of talent change in the up side. I am sick and tired of scouting everyone with all of my scouts and having all the guys that I draft become losers.

I took the advice in that thread to scout more close and use all the scouts. Did that for the last 2 years and funny enough, it's the exact same. I modified the talent changes and again, the exact same. This is part of the game that is severely broken IMO. I honestly don't find the game fun at all when every time I get a message from a scout I know I just lost part of the future.

I am sure that I am going to get flamed by people in this thread but I wanted to know if people feel the same way I do about this.

I said in the other thread and will repeat it here, I agree with you and have stopped playing solo leagues altogether. If it wasn't for the online league I am in, I would never open OOTP2007.

[pappyzan]

Originally Posted by tcblcommish

I know that I started another thread asking about talent changes and all I got is that things are what they are supposed to be and that things are in line with "REAL LIFE" Well, too bad because I am sick and tired of every damn player in my organization becoming crap. I am no longer going to use this anymore due to this.

After every draft, my players that are good become crap, the players that are crap don't get hardly anything in terms of some ind of talent change in the up side. I am sick and tired of scouting everyone with all of my scouts and having all the guys that I draft become losers.

I took the advice in that thread to scout more close and use all the scouts. Did that for the last 2 years and funny enough, it's the exact same. I modified the talent changes and again, the exact same. This is part of the game that is severely broken IMO. I honestly don't find the game fun at all when every time I get a message from a scout I know I just lost part of the future.

I am sure that I am going to get flamed by people in this thread but I wanted to know if people feel the same way I do about this.

Set the Talent Change Randomness to 1 if you don't like the talent changes. You can find this setting under Game -> Game Setup -> Player & Picture Options. It's set to 100 by default. Setting it to 1 will mean that none of your good players will see a ratings plummet (until they're older anyways), but it also means that none of your bad players will ever turn into good players either.

[endgame]

Originally Posted by Sweed

I'm not going to flame you but to answer your question, I do not feel the same way you do.

I've found that my league has a much more realistic mix of young and old players than in any previous version. My minor leaguers do develop and of course there are many busts, just like RL. I've been very happy with the way v2007 has done player development.

Seems strange that we have such a disparity of viewpoints with regard to this subject. I'm with Sweed here, for the record. Not only do I find talent changes to be expectedly skewed to deterioration, I also find the tandem performance that out-distances talent expectations without any changes in actual talent ratings.

[statfreak]

Originally Posted by endgame

Seems strange that we have such a disparity of viewpoints with regard to this subject. I'm with Sweed here, for the record. Not only do I find talent changes to be expectedly skewed to deterioration, I also find the tandem performance that out-distances talent expectations without any changes in actual talent ratings.

the problem I have is all about the way the game handles talent. I believe talent should only go up and never be decreased. Ratings; however, should rise and fall as they currently do. So for the 4 pitchers on my roster that dropped 3 and 4 points on a 10 point scale without suffering an injury, instead of showing them going from a 7 or 8 talent to 3 or 4, just never let their actual ratings get higher than 4 or 5. Right now, the pitchers are rubbish and I knew they were rubbish the instant I saw the development report. IMO, it would be better and more realistic if I wasn't notified of their massive talent hits and I was forced to hold onto them year after year hoping/waiting for their ratings to catch up to the talent levels... only they never will. Then I would have a much more realistic choice to make... continue holding on to see if they'll ever reach their potential or release them and hope they don't get picked up and develop into the player I thought I drafted, but never materialized. This method would also save me the frustration I feel right now as every pitcher under the age 25 with a 6 or better rating has experienced a 1 to 4 point drop (using the 1-10 rating scale). It unrealistic for me to instantly know a player is now worthless and frankly it did and has caused me to quit playing the game (outside of online leagues).

[mikev]

Originally Posted by statfreak

the problem I have is all about the way the game handles talent. I believe talent should only go up and never be decreased. Ratings; however, should rise and fall as they currently do. So for the 4 pitchers on my roster that dropped 3 and 4 points on a 10 point scale without suffering an injury, instead of showing them going from a 7 or 8 talent to 3 or 4, just never let their actual ratings get higher than 4 or 5. Right now, the pitchers are rubbish and I knew they were rubbish the instant I saw the development report. IMO, it would be better and more realistic if I wasn't notified of their massive talent hits and I was forced to hold onto them year after year hoping/waiting for their ratings to catch up to the talent levels... only they never will. Then I would have a much more realistic choice to make... continue holding on to see if they'll ever reach their potential or release them and hope they don't get picked up and develop into the player I thought I drafted, but never materialized. This method would also save me the frustration I feel right now as every pitcher under the age 25 with a 6 or better rating has experienced a 1 to 4 point drop (using the 1-10 rating scale). It unrealistic for me to instantly know a player is now worthless and frankly it did and has caused me to quit playing the game (outside of online leagues).

I agree with this completely. Talents should never drop, only ratings.

[injury log]

Originally Posted by statfreak

[...] IMO, it would be better and more realistic if I wasn't notified of their massive talent hits and I was forced to hold onto them year after year hoping/waiting for their ratings to catch up to the talent levels... only they never will. [....] It unrealistic for me to instantly know a player is now worthless and frankly it did and has caused me to quit playing the game (outside of online leagues).

There's a workaround; if you fire your head scout, you don't get any player development messages. I agree completely that the instantaneous nature of talent hits is unrealistic, and makes player decisions too easy.

I'd rather not need to fire my head scout just to avoid getting development messages; I'd rather be able to customize messages in detail (e.g. choose to receive no msgs from head scout, receive career ending injury news from entire universe, no news items about 5-hit games, etc). Might start a campaign...

[JWay]

Originally Posted by mikev

I agree with this completely. Talents should never drop, only ratings.

also agree.

[CBL-Commish]

Originally Posted by mikev

I agree with this completely. Talents should never drop, only ratings.

Even following injuries? Even with old age?

[statfreak]

Originally Posted by injury log

There's a workaround; if you fire your head scout, you don't get any player development messages. I agree completely that the instantaneous nature of talent hits is unrealistic, and makes player decisions too easy.

I'd rather not need to fire my head scout just to avoid getting development messages; I'd rather be able to customize messages in detail (e.g. choose to receive no msgs from head scout, receive career ending injury news from entire universe, no news items about 5-hit games, etc). Might start a campaign...

I always play with scouts and coaches turned off. Even so, wouldn't a player's talent still change when looking at their profile?

[statfreak]

Originally Posted by CBL-Commish

Even following injuries? Even with old age?

I could see talent dropping when a player gets older (35+), but why should I immediately find out a player is junk after an injury? I would still rather see talent remain the same and only have actual ratings increase/decrease.

[mikev]

Originally Posted by CBL-Commish

Even following injuries? Even with old age?

Even following injuries and even with old age.

Talent should be looked at as the ceiling for a player's ability throughout his entire career. Ratings should be what the player is currently capable of doing.

Age and injury history should be things that you should take into consideration as a GM. Does that 34 year old pitcher with a 10 stuff talent but only a 6 rating still have something left, or is he going to continue to decline as he gets up in age? Does your star center fielder stand a chance at returning to his 10 in power even though his rating dropped to a 7 after he broke his arm?

IMO, it's fairly rare that a player's actual talent, that is the maximum performance that they are capable of, drops. Really other than Chuck Knoblauch I can't think of another guy off the top of my head who just stopped being a good player.