Things that need to be said

jasonditz · 10-07-2002, 11:46 AM

This was originally intended to be in that frighteningly large 500+ post thread below, but someone closed that and I think some of these things just need to be said.
No offense is intended at anybody.

Quote:

Originally posted by Henry
Grow up for Christ's sake and start acting like a responsible member of society.

As Scott said, to many of us have almost quit offering additions to this great game because of the childish reactions of some.

So the grown up thing to do is take your ball and go home?

I mean, c'mon guys: the whole point of a text-based baseball simulation is that its decidedly un-grownup of us to be playing it. That's why its so much fun.

If you're the sort of person who is making the additions to the game solely in the hope that everyone will complement you on the size of your genitals, I'm guessing most OOTPers would be better off without it.

The best addons come out because someone wants them for their own leagues. They do it because they love the game, because its fun.

That's why I'm a little skeptical that this upcoming roster pack is going to be half as good as advertised. The reason Rolen's rosters last year were so good is because he took his time, did things right, and most of all did what he wanted, and presumably enjoyed it.

Maybe thats how these rosters started out too, but for the past 6 months we've been hearing what a colossal chore they are and how they get in the way of everything else and how the lack of gratitude for the work which allegedly occured is making everyone rethink the whole thing: I dunno, it seems like the essence of why OOTP is fun and why making a roster pack is fun was somehow lost. If they really hate doing this so much, why don't they just not do it? As a million people pointed out on this thread, its not like anyone is paying them.

A rosterpack is indeed a lot of work, but its supposed to be fun work. If its not fun anymore, maybe you guys should just call it a day and let someone else who might enjoy this do it.

And anyone whose thinking of starting a new addon as a mercenary effort to get attention and nothing else, my advise is, don't bother.

LivnLegend · 10-07-2002, 11:57 AM

I've been around this board for a while but one place I stayed out of was that ridiculously huge thread concerning the GForce/Rolen roster set. I am not about to go in there now and try and figure out why that thread grew to 500+ posts but the fact that it was closed would lead me to believe things were not pretty.

I have no interest in this roster set; it would not enhance how I utilize OOTP4. However, I can't imagine why anyone would spend ten seconds criticizing the efforts of others to bring this roster set to fruition! I don’t care if the authors trumpeted this set 5 months ago as the second coming or not, either make your own set or just wait until this one is available. That's really all there is to it. I can't imagine what good will come from starting another thread to argue about it.

spleen1015 · 10-07-2002, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LivnLegend
However, I can't imagine why anyone would spend ten seconds criticizing the efforts of others to bring this roster set to fruition! I don’t care if the authors trumpeted this set 5 months ago as the second coming or not, either make your own set or just wait until this one is available. That's really all there is to it. I can't imagine what good will come from starting another thread to argue about it.

No Kidding, Scott. Make your own or shut up.

Hammer755 · 10-07-2002, 12:15 PM

I really don't understand why that 'Needed to be Said'

, but in addition to Scott and Henry, I find myself needing to come here far less often than I once did.

10-07-2002, 12:19 PM

It's a real shame that thread had to be closed. I'm not happy about it, but Steve had no choice. The thread was supposed to be a place for GForce and Rolen to give updates on the progress, and for people to make constructive comments. Instead it degenerated into a total mess thanks to a few people who had to ruin it for everyone.

To anyone who just joined / is about to join this forum:

I hope I can speak for the others here when I say that we welcome new members here - most of us are very helpful when a new person has a question about the game, or needs some help. We are glad to have new people join, but not if you are only here to insult other people and their work, and to turn worthwhile threads into personal attacks and arguments. Please have enough respect for the community that's already here and just stay away if that's all you want to do.

When people like GForce and Rolen dedicate so much of their time and effort to a project like the roster set, they aren't getting paid for it. They're doing it because they want to make this game better for themselves and for others who play this game. You don't have to thank them, or say you appreciate their work, if you don't want to. That's your choice. But when you're constantly demanding the rosters be released, or making attacks against the creators for lying, or "leading us on", you are stepping out of line. Have some respect for the people here and keep these comments to yourself. They serve no purpose.

Also Steve - if you don't mind me suggesting this, I think instead of closing a thread like that next time, you should delete the inflammatory posts (like yzerman's). This way the thread can go on without a couple people ruining it.

Thanks for listening.

Henry · 10-07-2002, 12:29 PM

Jasonditz,
Boy did you miss the point....

I don't think Rolen or GForce will, even for a moment, say this is not fun anymore. I think what they will say is that what they attempted to do in reference to "detail" expanded the scope beyond what had been done before.

As far as the difficulties encountered (and I'm not talking personal life) as you all know, there are two ways to get players into the game. (1) is manually, player by player, and this would be a huge undertaking, and (2) is through a "csv" file or spreadsheet. The problem, as I understand it, is that it's not "clean" in that if things are not exact, weird problems occur. Many of you have experienced some of these issues even using the Lahman database. In effect, Rolen ad GForce had to create all the spreadsheets - with all the added detail of minor leaguers, then needed assistance from Pierre to get them into the game correctly. And don't forget there's 3 times as many minor leaguers than those on the MLB club.

Trying to coordinate the tasks of three people in different parts of the world on a roster set that has what, 4-5000 players in it? , is going to take time - lot's of it, and when technical difficulties get in the way along with personal responsibilties - it becomes obvious why this took so long (actually it's only been 6 months).

Now - about "taking my ball and going home" - don't give me that speech when the people that are complaining here haven't done squat to provide their own addons. I don't know of one person (and I'll admit someone somewhere will bring up an exception, and I'll apologize in advance if there is anyone) that has contributed some personal work to this community that are among the biggest complainers.

Yes, we create things for our own enjoyment first. No we don't do it for a pat on the back - but yes, if someone consistently shows nothing but criticism and disrespect, we may choose to keep our creations to ourselves. Look, I'm not suggesting this be done - what I am suggesting is that those who do this for their own enjoyment, and then choose to share it with us - shouldn't expect accolades - but they also shouldn't expect criticism and disrespect. The ONLY thing Rolen and GForce MIGHT have done wrong here is announced their work too early - but I'm sure they never thought it would take this long either.

As has been said before, if you don't want to wait - create your own. This has been stated and restated and restated and guess what. No one has taken us up on that statement. you want to know why? Becasue many don't have the ability, and others don't want to spend the time, and yet others already see what kind of reaction they would get. So why do we jump all over the few that try ???

Where does one go from here? I really do feel sorry for Rolen and GForce because there will be critisizm. There will be those that say "I waited for this?" basically discounting the hundreds of hours put into this work - and I have no doubt it will be the most comprehensive work done to dat, whether or not you agree with the results. It will deserve a thank you because many of us will overlook whatever shortcomings it has and enjoy it for what it was intended to be.

Oh, one more comment.

Playing a text-based baseball game is childish? Well, maybe. But not anymore childish thatn a Friday night out drinking, or adding that subwoofer in the truck of the car, or playing strip poker at the local frat party. Nor is it any more childish than a night out bowling, a gold game, or throwing darts or playing pool. We are all children at heart... and that's not the point here.

Henry

Henry · 10-07-2002, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ExposFan08

Also Steve - if you don't mind me suggesting this, I think instead of closing a thread like that next time, you should delete the inflammatory posts (like yzerman's). This way the thread can go on without a couple people ruining it.

Agree 100%

Henry

Erich Ingram · 10-07-2002, 12:37 PM

NEVER have I said it is too much work or that I am not having fun doing it. Everyone else has said that for us. Yes I have two kids and two jobs but I only mention that as a reason why I haven't put them out as early as everyone wanted them. Other things have occured as well but I still enjoy doing the roster files. It is not that they are a colossal chore it is just that we want people to understand that we have lives and that they are more important than releasing this just because someone wants us to. Realize last year it took 4 1/2 months of work to do it and I did not have to match up to anything I had done in previous years. This time it has taken longer partly because the approach was different, something that we thought would make it easier actually didn't but that is just something to learn from.

Also I have never trumpeted the set as anything other than my attempt to make a full minors Opening Day set for 2002. Others have trumpeted my work and GForce's work for us.

Yes I enjoy hearing that people like the work that I do, it makes me happy to hear that I am making others use of the game better. Will it matter to me if individuals like Yzerman19 like the set? No, not in the least. He can whine and complain all he wants but you know what I bet he still downloads the set and uses it, but he then he will rip it and that is his prerogative. I will still sleep at night either way.

This has turned into a fiasco this year because everyone put too much hype into it. That is one of the reasons that you do not see my posts in that thread very often. I did not comment on others comments because I can't be bothered with responding to the negatives, it is a waste of time because those with the negative comments will only see the parts that they can use to make more negative comments. I have replied with thanks to those who have supported me. I have also replied with comments to people who have offered constructive items, even when they had differing ideas from me. I find well thought out comments deserve replies.

Please realize that the reason that I create these rosters is because I want them for myself to be able to play players like Hanley Ramirez and see if he will be the next great Shortstop in Boston or if the scouting reports are not right. I want to see guys like Bobby Bradley and Sean Burnett for the Pirates and Justin Pope from St. Louis and see which of the three will represent Wellington Community High School the best. This is the reason that I play OOTP in the first place to see guys that get drafted and play them through their careers and see what happens.

Guys like Henry and Scott both understand the work that is put in and that is why they don't put out the personal attacks and the complaining that others do. Personally I don't care what people want to say, it is not going to make me shirk my other duties in life which have more bearing and more importance to me. If I was a paid employee for Markus then this would be one of my priorities but since I am not, I have to worry about taking care of those things that are. This is a hobby to me that brings me enjoyment. With all the griping that people have put forth there really have not been any challenges to the work that we are trying to do. KOD has put out his set as he does each year and a couple of individuals have taken my original set and done some tinkering with it but the funny thing is you will notice that those guys are not the ones complaining on the board. I would like to see some of you exhalted complainers get together and put a set out. Just so that we can all see your work.

This is a game, treat it that way, if the most important thing in your life is waiting for me to release a roster set for you then I feel sorry for you that I have this much power over your life. The only people who should feel that way are my kids and wife on my providing for them financially. People please just relax and understand that I am doing what I can to make this completed and if you need it that bad then you should do what I did last year buy some books, invest some time and make a set. If you know what you are doing it can be fun. But either way a game should not rule your life this much.

Thank you for those of you are interested in my work as I can only speak for myself and will not speak for GForce. For those of you who are detractors if you don't like it when it comes out don't use it, I won't be offended or upset. For those of you who do use it I hope you enjoy and find it what you wanted.

TC Dale · 10-07-2002, 12:51 PM

Well spoken.

Eloquently and succinctly said.

Yogi

Steve Kuffrey · 10-07-2002, 01:37 PM

I REALLY don't like getting into this kinda thing but here is MY very simple solution to this situation:

-Rolen and G get their set done "when it is done".
-I say many thanks to them for their work(hopefully others will as well).
-Download them and use them if you wish.
-If you don't fine.
-If you d/l them and don't like them, EITHER.....

1) Keep quiet
2) Tweak things yourself in the privacy of your own home.
3) Make an whole roster set yourself from scratch(no don't use theirs as a starting point).

One thing NOT to do....

Complain about the work and effort that they put into the set.

jasonditz · 10-07-2002, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Henry

Now - about "taking my ball and going home" - don't give me that speech when the people that are complaining here haven't done squat to provide their own addons. I don't know of one person (and I'll admit someone somewhere will bring up an exception, and I'll apologize in advance if there is anyone) that has contributed some personal work to this community that are among the biggest complainers.

Henry

Actually I think you're missing my point as much as I missed yours.

The point is: who cares?

I mean so some guy posted on a message board complaining. So what? Everyone can see that guy is a goddamn idiot, why should everyone go through this handwringing "woe is me" crap everytime it happens?

What bothers me isn't the moronic flamers that post, you're always going to have those. They could've released the rosters on opening day, had them predict with 100% accuracy every atbat in the entire season, and someone would've still been complaining about something or other. Its the primadonna crap that ironically seems to come not from GeForce and Rolen (the guys who are doing the actual work) but from their self-appointed cheering section that posts the same tired argument over and over "If you can't wait, do it yourself." and then start insisting that they shouldn't release at all because one person dared to question the rosters perfection.

Seriously, which is worse: people who complain about someone else not releasing something free fast enough or people that get all self-important about those people when they weren't even the ones doing the work? I dunno, I'm just asking.

I bought OOTP4 15 minutes after it was available to buy. I've had a lot of fun with it, way more than games I paid twice as much for. There were plenty of enjoyable roster packs floating around that I had a ball with. A couple of times I tried my hand at making my own (nothing anyone else would've ever been interested in, so I never released them or anything).

Again, Rolen and Geforce, I'm not criticizing you guys. You had the fun of making most of the set and if you guys finish and release it, great (I've still got a league going from last years Rolen rosters, although 40+ years in the future its hard to tell anymore). If not, it doesn't take away from all the enjoyment I had of OOTP4 in the past 6 months, and it doesn't take away from the enjoyment I'll have until OOTP5 comes out.

Seriously, why does anyone care what some guy with a hockey player name has to say?

fluharty · 10-07-2002, 01:39 PM

FYI:

The reasons Rolen/GForce are doing a Roster set

a) Its a fun thing to do
b) They want a Spring-2002 roster set with lots of minor leaguers

The reasons they are sharing it with us

a) They are nice people
b) Maybe someone will find some use for the thing
c) To get some feedback on the quality of their work

They are beholden to us for:

a) not a G.D. thing

it will be available

a) whenever they feel like making it available, *IF* they feel like sharing it with us, and only then.

Lamorak · 10-07-2002, 05:21 PM

You know, I have no idea what this debate is about.

ONE thing I DO know;
The topic header...

"Things that need to be said"

...is like someone labelling 'War and Peace' a nice light read.

ednote · 10-07-2002, 06:10 PM

"War and Peace" is NOT a nice light read????? Boy, do I need to give the reviewer at the Book of the Month Club a piece of my mind!!!!

GForce22 · 10-07-2002, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jasonditz
A rosterpack is indeed a lot of work, but its supposed to be fun work. If its not fun anymore, maybe you guys should just call it a day and let someone else who might enjoy this do it.

A positively ridiculous point, seeing as how we were never preventing anyone else from doing it. Nobody else was kept from making rosters simply because we were doing one. Anyone else "who might enjoy" it has been totally free to do so.

GH

jasonditz · 10-07-2002, 10:06 PM

Jesus fricking Christ, is that all you took out of that entire post?

I mean I've seen some self absorbed people in my day, but this absolute takes the cake. There are other rosters out there. Good ones.

If I don't like yours of course I'm not going to use it. You know what, I'm not using it anyway, because it doesn't fricking exist yet!

I've enjoyed the hell right out of OOTP4, and you know what? Nothing made be GForce22 was involved in the least bit.

But thats not even the point, neither is whether or not an incidental statement in my long post seemed a little awkwardly worded. The point is, you guys shouldn't be doing this Yzerman19, or me, or some odd collective concept of "the community". You shouldn't be doing this for the accolades you will undoubtably receive or the respect it gets you on some message board. You should be doing it for you. Period.

Thats a point that Rolen seemed to get, and a point 90% of the other posts in this thread seemed to totally gloss over. I've seen this happen dozens of times to internet projects. Some of the people working on them get such overinflated egos from the hundreds of fanboys that flock around them and defend their every action that they lose sight of why they started in the first place.

OK, now everyone in who reads this get in a big race to see who can post "If you can't wait do it yourself" first.

I'm sick of arguing, and I'm going to go play a game called OOTP4. You may or may not have heard of it, but I highly recommend it.

10-07-2002, 10:08 PM

Steve, I suggest deleting that post so we don't have another 10 pages of arguing about it. Just my 2 cents ...

GForce22 · 10-07-2002, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jasonditz

I mean I've seen some self absorbed people in my day, but this absolute takes the cake. There are other rosters out there. Good ones.

If I don't like yours of course I'm not going to use it. You know what, I'm not using it anyway, because it doesn't fricking exist yet!

I've enjoyed the hell right out of OOTP4, and you know what? Nothing made be GForce22 was involved in the least bit.

I'm not really sure how it's self absorbed to say others were able to make their own rosters, but ok. You have an odd definition of self-absorbed, but whatever pulls your trigger.
I've said on several occasions that people shouldn't wait to do things with this game for our set. That's silly. This is an incredible game with outstanding rosters done by others, and via the database import. Rolen and I have never felt we were a necessity for this game. So you're just kind of pulling that perception out of the clouds. But that's not particularly surprising.

GH

Drood · 10-08-2002, 04:50 AM

Yikes, and I thought F1 fans were insane!

Not that this will add one damn thing to the pointless argument in this thread, I just want to chip in and say I'm a newbie to OOTP. Love the game. I'm still a newbie when it comes to baseball really. Only really started following it over the last couple of months (though have been a fan of computer based baseball for YEARS! Go figure.)

I've downloaded piles of addon's for OOTP over the last couple of months. Regardless of whether I use an addon or not I truly appreciate the work people put into it. Screw any sense of community and the like, the fact is folks out there out of the kindness of their heart put out groovy addon's. More power to them. I couldn't give a crap if they do them for love, or for ego. Whatever... I appreciate the work regardless. If it's good it's good. I couldn't give a crap if the face pack or roster I download was put together via some dark pact with Satan, by someone trying to spite their mother, or someone who enjoys the adulation. Whatever.

This whole argument is facile and ridiculous.

Kevin · 10-08-2002, 08:08 AM

Drood:
A refreshingly honest post.

10-07-2002, 11:57 AM	#2
LivnLegend Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: 100% pure adrenaline! Posts: 5,624	I've been around this board for a while but one place I stayed out of was that ridiculously huge thread concerning the GForce/Rolen roster set. I am not about to go in there now and try and figure out why that thread grew to 500+ posts but the fact that it was closed would lead me to believe things were not pretty. I have no interest in this roster set; it would not enhance how I utilize OOTP4. However, I can't imagine why anyone would spend ten seconds criticizing the efforts of others to bring this roster set to fruition! I don’t care if the authors trumpeted this set 5 months ago as the second coming or not, either make your own set or just wait until this one is available. That's really all there is to it. I can't imagine what good will come from starting another thread to argue about it. __________________ Excess ain't rebellion. You're drinking what they're selling.

10-07-2002, 12:29 PM	#6
Henry Hall of Fame Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 6,498	Jasonditz, Boy did you miss the point.... I don't think Rolen or GForce will, even for a moment, say this is not fun anymore. I think what they will say is that what they attempted to do in reference to "detail" expanded the scope beyond what had been done before. As far as the difficulties encountered (and I'm not talking personal life) as you all know, there are two ways to get players into the game. (1) is manually, player by player, and this would be a huge undertaking, and (2) is through a "csv" file or spreadsheet. The problem, as I understand it, is that it's not "clean" in that if things are not exact, weird problems occur. Many of you have experienced some of these issues even using the Lahman database. In effect, Rolen ad GForce had to create all the spreadsheets - with all the added detail of minor leaguers, then needed assistance from Pierre to get them into the game correctly. And don't forget there's 3 times as many minor leaguers than those on the MLB club. Trying to coordinate the tasks of three people in different parts of the world on a roster set that has what, 4-5000 players in it? , is going to take time - lot's of it, and when technical difficulties get in the way along with personal responsibilties - it becomes obvious why this took so long (actually it's only been 6 months). Now - about "taking my ball and going home" - don't give me that speech when the people that are complaining here haven't done squat to provide their own addons. I don't know of one person (and I'll admit someone somewhere will bring up an exception, and I'll apologize in advance if there is anyone) that has contributed some personal work to this community that are among the biggest complainers. Yes, we create things for our own enjoyment first. No we don't do it for a pat on the back - but yes, if someone consistently shows nothing but criticism and disrespect, we may choose to keep our creations to ourselves. Look, I'm not suggesting this be done - what I am suggesting is that those who do this for their own enjoyment, and then choose to share it with us - shouldn't expect accolades - but they also shouldn't expect criticism and disrespect. The ONLY thing Rolen and GForce MIGHT have done wrong here is announced their work too early - but I'm sure they never thought it would take this long either. As has been said before, if you don't want to wait - create your own. This has been stated and restated and restated and guess what. No one has taken us up on that statement. you want to know why? Becasue many don't have the ability, and others don't want to spend the time, and yet others already see what kind of reaction they would get. So why do we jump all over the few that try ??? Where does one go from here? I really do feel sorry for Rolen and GForce because there will be critisizm. There will be those that say "I waited for this?" basically discounting the hundreds of hours put into this work - and I have no doubt it will be the most comprehensive work done to dat, whether or not you agree with the results. It will deserve a thank you because many of us will overlook whatever shortcomings it has and enjoy it for what it was intended to be. Oh, one more comment. Playing a text-based baseball game is childish? Well, maybe. But not anymore childish thatn a Friday night out drinking, or adding that subwoofer in the truck of the car, or playing strip poker at the local frat party. Nor is it any more childish than a night out bowling, a gold game, or throwing darts or playing pool. We are all children at heart... and that's not the point here. Henry Last edited by Henry; 10-07-2002 at 12:31 PM.

10-07-2002, 12:37 PM	#8
Erich Ingram Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 2,217	NEVER have I said it is too much work or that I am not having fun doing it. Everyone else has said that for us. Yes I have two kids and two jobs but I only mention that as a reason why I haven't put them out as early as everyone wanted them. Other things have occured as well but I still enjoy doing the roster files. It is not that they are a colossal chore it is just that we want people to understand that we have lives and that they are more important than releasing this just because someone wants us to. Realize last year it took 4 1/2 months of work to do it and I did not have to match up to anything I had done in previous years. This time it has taken longer partly because the approach was different, something that we thought would make it easier actually didn't but that is just something to learn from. Also I have never trumpeted the set as anything other than my attempt to make a full minors Opening Day set for 2002. Others have trumpeted my work and GForce's work for us. Yes I enjoy hearing that people like the work that I do, it makes me happy to hear that I am making others use of the game better. Will it matter to me if individuals like Yzerman19 like the set? No, not in the least. He can whine and complain all he wants but you know what I bet he still downloads the set and uses it, but he then he will rip it and that is his prerogative. I will still sleep at night either way. This has turned into a fiasco this year because everyone put too much hype into it. That is one of the reasons that you do not see my posts in that thread very often. I did not comment on others comments because I can't be bothered with responding to the negatives, it is a waste of time because those with the negative comments will only see the parts that they can use to make more negative comments. I have replied with thanks to those who have supported me. I have also replied with comments to people who have offered constructive items, even when they had differing ideas from me. I find well thought out comments deserve replies. Please realize that the reason that I create these rosters is because I want them for myself to be able to play players like Hanley Ramirez and see if he will be the next great Shortstop in Boston or if the scouting reports are not right. I want to see guys like Bobby Bradley and Sean Burnett for the Pirates and Justin Pope from St. Louis and see which of the three will represent Wellington Community High School the best. This is the reason that I play OOTP in the first place to see guys that get drafted and play them through their careers and see what happens. Guys like Henry and Scott both understand the work that is put in and that is why they don't put out the personal attacks and the complaining that others do. Personally I don't care what people want to say, it is not going to make me shirk my other duties in life which have more bearing and more importance to me. If I was a paid employee for Markus then this would be one of my priorities but since I am not, I have to worry about taking care of those things that are. This is a hobby to me that brings me enjoyment. With all the griping that people have put forth there really have not been any challenges to the work that we are trying to do. KOD has put out his set as he does each year and a couple of individuals have taken my original set and done some tinkering with it but the funny thing is you will notice that those guys are not the ones complaining on the board. I would like to see some of you exhalted complainers get together and put a set out. Just so that we can all see your work. This is a game, treat it that way, if the most important thing in your life is waiting for me to release a roster set for you then I feel sorry for you that I have this much power over your life. The only people who should feel that way are my kids and wife on my providing for them financially. People please just relax and understand that I am doing what I can to make this completed and if you need it that bad then you should do what I did last year buy some books, invest some time and make a set. If you know what you are doing it can be fun. But either way a game should not rule your life this much. Thank you for those of you are interested in my work as I can only speak for myself and will not speak for GForce. For those of you who are detractors if you don't like it when it comes out don't use it, I won't be offended or upset. For those of you who do use it I hope you enjoy and find it what you wanted. __________________ Erich Ingram (Rolen17) IOSBL San Diego Aztecs 2010, 2012,2013, 2014 World Series Champions Maelstrom Padres 2026 World Champions eMLB Washington Nationals

10-07-2002, 01:37 PM	#10
Steve Kuffrey Administrator Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: S.E. TN - Georgia born and raised Posts: 17,036	I REALLY don't like getting into this kinda thing but here is MY very simple solution to this situation: -Rolen and G get their set done "when it is done". -I say many thanks to them for their work(hopefully others will as well). -Download them and use them if you wish. -If you don't fine. -If you d/l them and don't like them, EITHER..... 1) Keep quiet 2) Tweak things yourself in the privacy of your own home. 3) Make an whole roster set yourself from scratch(no don't use theirs as a starting point). One thing NOT to do.... Complain about the work and effort that they put into the set. __________________ Steve Kuffrey DABS Atlanta Braves - 2008 Eastern Division Champ *DBLC Atlanta Braves - 2011, 2014 East Division Champ, 2012, 2013 NL Wildcard Baseball Maelstrom-Montreal Expos-2013 Tourney winner, 2014 WC Team Sparky's League - Tampa Bay D'Rays Epicenter Baseball League - Astros 2014 The CBL Rewind - Phillies '95

10-08-2002, 08:08 AM	#20
Kevin All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 503	Drood: A refreshingly honest post. __________________ It seems more like today than it did all day yesterday.

10-07-2002, 12:15 PM	#4
Hammer755 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 2,348	I really don't understand why that 'Needed to be Said' , but in addition to Scott and Henry, I find myself needing to come here far less often than I once did.

10-07-2002, 12:19 PM	#5
ExposFan08 Guest Posts: n/a	It's a real shame that thread had to be closed. I'm not happy about it, but Steve had no choice. The thread was supposed to be a place for GForce and Rolen to give updates on the progress, and for people to make constructive comments. Instead it degenerated into a total mess thanks to a few people who had to ruin it for everyone. To anyone who just joined / is about to join this forum: I hope I can speak for the others here when I say that we welcome new members here - most of us are very helpful when a new person has a question about the game, or needs some help. We are glad to have new people join, but not if you are only here to insult other people and their work, and to turn worthwhile threads into personal attacks and arguments. Please have enough respect for the community that's already here and just stay away if that's all you want to do. When people like GForce and Rolen dedicate so much of their time and effort to a project like the roster set, they aren't getting paid for it. They're doing it because they want to make this game better for themselves and for others who play this game. You don't have to thank them, or say you appreciate their work, if you don't want to. That's your choice. But when you're constantly demanding the rosters be released, or making attacks against the creators for lying, or "leading us on", you are stepping out of line. Have some respect for the people here and keep these comments to yourself. They serve no purpose. Also Steve - if you don't mind me suggesting this, I think instead of closing a thread like that next time, you should delete the inflammatory posts (like yzerman's). This way the thread can go on without a couple people ruining it. Thanks for listening.

10-07-2002, 12:51 PM	#9
TC Dale Global Moderator Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 4,982	Well spoken. Eloquently and succinctly said. Yogi

10-07-2002, 01:39 PM	#12
fluharty All Star Starter Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Morgantown, WV Posts: 1,023	FYI: The reasons Rolen/GForce are doing a Roster set a) Its a fun thing to do b) They want a Spring-2002 roster set with lots of minor leaguers The reasons they are sharing it with us a) They are nice people b) Maybe someone will find some use for the thing c) To get some feedback on the quality of their work They are beholden to us for: a) not a G.D. thing it will be available a) whenever they feel like making it available, IF they feel like sharing it with us, and only then.

10-07-2002, 05:21 PM	#13
Lamorak Minors (Double A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 195	You know, I have no idea what this debate is about. ONE thing I DO know; The topic header... "Things that need to be said" ...is like someone labelling 'War and Peace' a nice light read.

10-07-2002, 06:10 PM	#14
ednote Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ironwood, Mich. Posts: 222	"War and Peace" is NOT a nice light read????? Boy, do I need to give the reviewer at the Book of the Month Club a piece of my mind!!!!

10-07-2002, 10:06 PM	#16
jasonditz Minors (Double A) Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 121	Jesus fricking Christ, is that all you took out of that entire post? I mean I've seen some self absorbed people in my day, but this absolute takes the cake. There are other rosters out there. Good ones. If I don't like yours of course I'm not going to use it. You know what, I'm not using it anyway, because it doesn't fricking exist yet! I've enjoyed the hell right out of OOTP4, and you know what? Nothing made be GForce22 was involved in the least bit. But thats not even the point, neither is whether or not an incidental statement in my long post seemed a little awkwardly worded. The point is, you guys shouldn't be doing this Yzerman19, or me, or some odd collective concept of "the community". You shouldn't be doing this for the accolades you will undoubtably receive or the respect it gets you on some message board. You should be doing it for you. Period. Thats a point that Rolen seemed to get, and a point 90% of the other posts in this thread seemed to totally gloss over. I've seen this happen dozens of times to internet projects. Some of the people working on them get such overinflated egos from the hundreds of fanboys that flock around them and defend their every action that they lose sight of why they started in the first place. OK, now everyone in who reads this get in a big race to see who can post "If you can't wait do it yourself" first. I'm sick of arguing, and I'm going to go play a game called OOTP4. You may or may not have heard of it, but I highly recommend it.

10-07-2002, 10:08 PM	#17
ExposFan08 Guest Posts: n/a	Steve, I suggest deleting that post so we don't have another 10 pages of arguing about it. Just my 2 cents ...

10-08-2002, 04:50 AM	#19
Drood Registered User Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 425	Yikes, and I thought F1 fans were insane! Not that this will add one damn thing to the pointless argument in this thread, I just want to chip in and say I'm a newbie to OOTP. Love the game. I'm still a newbie when it comes to baseball really. Only really started following it over the last couple of months (though have been a fan of computer based baseball for YEARS! Go figure.) I've downloaded piles of addon's for OOTP over the last couple of months. Regardless of whether I use an addon or not I truly appreciate the work people put into it. Screw any sense of community and the like, the fact is folks out there out of the kindness of their heart put out groovy addon's. More power to them. I couldn't give a crap if they do them for love, or for ego. Whatever... I appreciate the work regardless. If it's good it's good. I couldn't give a crap if the face pack or roster I download was put together via some dark pact with Satan, by someone trying to spite their mother, or someone who enjoys the adulation. Whatever. This whole argument is facile and ridiculous.