Does Position Player Fatigue Work?

[Qwerty75]

I've gotten back into playing OotP in an online league for the past couple months after having last played v6.5 a couple years ago. I was pretty confident Position Player Fatigue worked in that version, but from some players I've seen in the online league under v2007, I've begun to wonder if anyone has any evidence to support the assumption that it's working now. (Did a board search and no one has suggested this feature being "broken" before.) Has anyone run a test-study on this? Anecdotal evidence of examples that suggest both the actual influence of or lack of pos. player fatigue effect would be interesting, as well.

Player fatigue is on and probably (this part not confirmed by the commish) set at "Normal" in the league. The most glaring examples of fatigue possibly not working are 1) this OF, probably the best all-around hitter in the league, and 2) this SS, his teammate and star hitter as well. As far as I know, both players haven't had a backup set in the team depth charts all season, so they've played most of their games at some level of tiredness, many at 0%-Totally Exhausted. Affecting the stats for this season compared to past seasons might be this year's conversion to v2007 and the fact that both players are relatively young and are on the rising side or peak of their development curve, so their improvement may be expected and not a career-year phenomenon outside of their day-to-day fatigue. The first player is leading the league in OPS (by a little) and VORP (by a lot -- near neutral home park), so it's strange to imagine what he'd be doing if fatigue works and he was being rested.

There are some other players that are smaller question marks as well, but I haven't kept track of their fatigue status through the season. These two and some of their teammates have been consistently playing tired, however, and don't seem to show negative effects.

I hope some of you might have some insight into this puzzle ... thanks in advance for sharing.

[Kaitiaki]

So your concern is not that players aren't getting tired, but that their observed fatigue isn't affecting their performance or injury likelihood?

- Kai

[Qwerty75]

Originally Posted by Kaitiaki

So your concern is not that players aren't getting tired, but that their observed fatigue isn't affecting their performance or injury likelihood?

- Kai

Correct.

[RchW]

Can't speak for online leagues but in solo fictional fatigue seems to work well. Player fatigue often signals an impending injury and can sometimes pre-date a slump. I've traded players who got tired too much. If a stud pitcher gets a dtd injury, I will bypass him in the rotation or DL him just to prevent a fatigue generated injury.

I'd still like to see a more graduated system where players are only 100% in the first month of the season and even if durable their baseline declines slightly as the season progresses.

However the AI does a poor job with this feature. Especially in the minors where it invariably makes the backup catcher the DH, but does not call up a third catcher. Even if the depth chart is not complete the AI should be able to replace an exhausted position player. If not then we should be able to specify 3 catchers or 6 OF (if an OF is DH) in the active roster as an option. A GM/FM would do this in discussions throughout the season IRL.

[voxpoptart]

Right, the minor league A.I. is a huge issue; I brought it up on the A.I. suggestions page that the computer managers should, if this is possible, be made able in OOTP9 to respond to fatigue, injuries, and lack of backups.

Currently, however, the minor league auto-managers often have position players at 0% Totally Exhausted for months on end. I think, because of this, that Markus decided to give position player fatigue only a tiny effect on performance (as opposed to injuries, where its importance is real).

Now, pitcher fatigue matters: the more fatigued, the more likely his performance is to blow up in your face.

[Kaitiaki]

Originally Posted by voxpoptart

Currently, however, the minor league auto-managers often have position players at 0% Totally Exhausted for months on end.

This is a known bug that has been claimed fixed for the third patch.

Originally Posted by Qwerty75

Correct.

As voxpoptart says, Fatigue doesn't actually have a terribly large effect on performance - it's small enough that it's certainly hard to tell from just two individual cases (both of whom are good enough that, as you point out, they could just be having really good seasons despite the fatigue) if there's a problem with the feature. And as for injuries, there again we have a sample size issue: not resting a player doesn't guarantee he'll get hurt, it just makes it more likely. Fail to rest enough players for a long period of time, and the effect will become apparent, but observed at the individual level over a single season, and your results are as likely to be due to chance as they are a broken bit of code somewhere.

I'm not dismissing what you're observing, just pointing out that it's not conclusive - and, as you acknowledge, the fact that no one else seems to have noticed a problem argues that the feature is working properly on a macro level.

I'll certainly keep an eye out for fatigued players and try to check their performances and injury histories as I'm testing, but barring any more dramatic or systemic observations of the problem, I'm inclined to think you've probably just got a bit of fluke/luck on your hands.

- Kai

[voxpoptart]

Originally Posted by Kaitiaki

This is a known bug that has been claimed fixed for the third patch.

Whoo-hoo!

In that case, though, has Markus coded fatigue to have a larger performance effect? Now that the best reason not to do so is gone?

[Kaitiaki]

Originally Posted by voxpoptart

Whoo-hoo!

In that case, though, has Markus coded fatigue to have a larger performance effect? Now that the best reason not to do so is gone?

Not so far as I know.

One clarification I should add: AI managers properly handling fatigue obviously requires that you either have sufficient players on your roster, or ghost players enabled. If you only have nine hitters and no ghost players, your guys are still going to get tired. But the ghost player substitution AI in particular has been improved so that the game won't let an empty depth chart lead to exhausted starters.

- Kai

[timlowery]

Kai,

Thanks for the clarification. I've been beating my head against this problem in my minors, never thought to turn on ghost players.

Thanks again!

[RchW]

Originally Posted by voxpoptart

Currently, however, the minor league auto-managers often have position players at 0% Totally Exhausted for months on end. I think, because of this, that Markus decided to give position player fatigue only a tiny effect on performance (as opposed to injuries, where its importance is real).

Originally Posted by Kaitiaki

This is a known bug that has been claimed fixed for the third patch.- Kai

Kai do you have the TT for this? It is not fixed as of the latest Battisti build. I looked in TT and could not find by searching.

[Kaitiaki]

Originally Posted by RchW

Kai do you have the TT for this? It is not fixed as of the latest Battisti build. I looked in TT and could not find by searching.

2690. Verified by me and pstrickert.

- Kai

[RchW]

Originally Posted by Kaitiaki

2690. Verified by me and pstrickert.

- Kai

Ah, maybe mine is different. Not using ghost players and it generally follows a pattern of using the backup catcher as DH (or 1B if he has a rating). Of course the catcher gets tired and there is no backup. Happens with other positions but not as often. Probably too late but I'll TT anyway.

[Lousghost]

I'm experiencing this same frustrating problem. My catcher is listed at 0%, completely exhausted, yet the AI sticks him in the game every time. I traded for a backup catcher, asked the manager to set the lineups, and he sticks the backup (rated at 4 stars) in AAA, leaving my completely exhausted catcher still on the main roster by himself and playing every game. I play as g.m., making trades and signing players, and count on the AI to manage the team on the other levels. It's unfathomable that the AI can't read the fatigue factor and substitute the backup catcher.