"State of the Game" Address

Jim Trunzo · 08-01-2002, 09:16 PM

"STATE OF THE GAME" ADDRESS: The Latest on the Evolution of Our Boxing/Fight Management Simulation

As many of you know, Title Bout Championship Boxing has undergone many evolutions since it's debut as Truco Championship Boxing. It has, in prior iterations, gone under the name Title Bout: Game of Professional Boxing, TKO Pro Boxing, APBA Pro Boxing, Title Bout for Windows, and most recently, Title Fight 2001. Now, in partnership with .400 Software Studios, "Title Bout Championship Boxing" aims to correct all previous mistakes, turn all weaknesses into strengths and add an entirely new concept to the simulation by creating a 100% interactive side to the product.

With work proceeding at a feverish pace in order to have the newest rendition of the boxing simulation ready for Christmas delivery, we are re-examining every part of the basic design. In the process, we have become aware of any number of programming errors and we have -- admittedly -- uncovered some design flaws that should have been obvious but for some reason had been overlooked until now.

Here's some of what we've found and have re-worked to improve both the accuracy and/or the playability of the boxing simulation:

SCORING: _Currently the simulation produces too many 10-8 rounds and too many 10-10 rounds. After purchasing some "insider" information and conducting our own research, we found that our scoring system exceeded the actual number of 10-8, 10-10 and even 10-7 rounds by ten to fifteen percent. The 10-8 round problem (and ultimate solution) should have been obvious. Fighters are currently rewarded with anywhere from 6 to 10 points for scoring a knockdown. The end-of-the-round scoring routine also deducts 1 point from the loser for each knockdown suffered during the round. By giving points and subtracting for the knockdown, we were, in effect, penalizing the downed fighter twice. In many cases, the "double whammy" resulted in 10-8 or 10-7 rounds. The 10-10 rounds occurred because the current scoring module was too lenient when scoring rounds in which the points scored by each fighter were within "x" points of each other. The "fix" to both problems were relatively simple. However, rather than stop with just readjusting the range of numbers for close rounds and eliminating the "double dipping" when a knockdown was scored, we have also rated almost 200 judges for their predilection to award 10-10 rounds and 10-8 rounds. Some judges, we've discovered, never scored a 10-10 round in over 300 rounds scored in a given year, for example.

FIGHT SCHEDULER: The current scheduler works fine as is and allows the user to handle many useful scenarios. Once again, though, we wanted to address the requests of numerous users and add more flexibility and ease-of-use to the Scheduler. We have done so by allowing the user to have the scheduler randomly schedule matches. You will now be able to select a fighter and have the computer randomly schedule him against "x" number of other fighters or simply schedule "x" number of fights in a given division. Options for including randomly schedule bouts in a fighter's record/history will also be available.
COMMENTARY: The "thorn" in the program's side has been the inability to find a happy medium between the actual fight and the color commentary. The latter wouldn't be an issue if it had ever worked the way it was intended. Conditional statements were to dictate how often and when certain comments were displayed in order to avoid redundancy and ambiguity. However, for some reason attempts to implement the conditions failed more often than they worked. All the commentary -- every single line -- has been pulled, put into an interactive database by .400 Software Studio's programmer Andreas Raht, and will be reworked before the release of Title Bout Championship Boxing.

NEW CATEGORIES: With the advent of the "manager" as an entity, numerous new categories will be appearing in the game. Fighter's will have additional personality categories added and the manager himself will be rated in numerous areas. Other existing categories will take on even more significance (like Intelligence) and the ability to "draw" fans will become paramount, in many cases becoming more important that talent when it comes to the promotional and financial aspects of the new modules addressing those issues. Roy Jones, for example, may well be the most talented fighter boxing today but he's never been a top draw. Arturo Gatti, on the other hand, has lost 5 of his last 10 fights and is line for several more million dollar pay-days and has been called "the best television fighter of all time."

MORE ON MANAGING: The Management/Financial module is coming into even better focus as the design nears completion. You will, as a manager, have "X" dollars as your starting bankroll and no fighters in your stable. You can recruit any fighter that is not already signed to a contract. However, there is no guarantee that the fighter will sign with you. You will create a contract to submit to the fighter with whom you are negotiating, deciding upon length of contract, signing bonus, "loss" clause, monthly allowance, your percentage of the fighter's purse, etc. The more you offer the fighter, the more your base chance of signing him increases; the tougher you negotiate and the less you offer, the smaller your chance to sign him. Of course, the higher the fighter's "Signing Rating" (Overall Rating plus Draw Rating), the more he'll expect and the tougher he'll be to sign. As your Manager Rating improves (based upon the success of the fighters in your stable), the higher your base percentage becomes and the more your recognition and reputation grow.
After you sign a fighter or stable of fighters, you'll have to find a promoter with whom to work in order to arrange matches for them. Then, you'll have to earn your money by training and promoting and keeping your charges under control.

RANKINGS: A completely new formula for calculating "Performance Points" has been devised. Not only will the points earned or lost be more realistic, it will dramaticly affect the ranking system. A crucial change will be that only a fighter's last 10 fights will be used to determine his ranking. Before, fighters with a lot of fights could gain an insurmmountable number of points. Too often, a fighter with a record of 30-10-3 would rank higher than a fighter 20-2. That will no longer occur.

Scott Vibert · 08-01-2002, 09:56 PM

Sounds great Jim!

jrmorgan56 · 08-02-2002, 08:58 AM

Wow. I am really impressed with all the new features and work being put into this new version. Something to look forward to this Christmas!

I really like the new performace ranking system. With all these changes though, Jim, and extra attributes for fighters, how easy will it be to use/import fighters from my current game?

Mark · 08-04-2002, 09:51 AM

It all sounds very comprehensive, Jim. I am heartened to see that you have tackled earlier difficulties head-on, addressed them and offered solutions. You have stated in the past that it was your wish to make Title Bout (or whatever it is to be called) the ultimate boxing simulator. Based on what you have told us of the game, perhaps you will achieve your ambition. I truly hope you do.

Cap · 08-16-2002, 05:00 PM

One thing I'd like to see is an improvement to the fight creation process. There should be three windows visible during this process. One is a list of all the available fighters in a given weight class. From this window you would click on a fighter's name and his individual record AND ranking would appear in a second window so you could evaluate him. When satisfied with him as a participant in a match, you'd click on him and drag him into the third window to actually set up the fight.

As for individual records, I'd like to see prime fighting weight and country of origin added. Maybe height too. This would give you a better mental picture of the fighter. Of course, you'd have to have individual fighter portraits too.

Cap

RANGER11JP · 08-20-2002, 06:03 PM

Great to hear Jim. In regard to the FIGHT SCHEDULER, would it be possible to have a limit or recovery minimum from a fighters last bout? Maybe based on how well he did or how badly he was beaten up?

Jim Trunzo · 08-20-2002, 07:02 PM

Yes, as a matter of fact, we have built an entire system for mandated rest between fights, including official suspensions if a fighter has suffered a knockout, etc. Any fighter who fights BEFORE his mandated rest is up will suffer penalties to various ratings.

Jim Trunzo · 08-20-2002, 07:05 PM

Cap, your "3-window" idea is not only feasible and desirable but also in the works. It's going to be pretty much as you described. The problem with the "added info" you'd like is that it's horribly time consumming and sometimes very difficult to get. However, we'll give it a try.

Cap · 08-20-2002, 10:06 PM

Jim, great to hear from you. About the added info you referred to. Why not make it possible for the individual gamer to enter those stats? It would save you guys from a helluva lot of research. I'd like to be able to put those in myself.....unless of course this option makes it impossible to import fighters we've already created.

Keep punchin'

Cap

jrmorgan56 · 08-20-2002, 10:10 PM

I agree with Cap...Just leave the blanks and leave it to your fans, Jim. I would love to have that option available to me while I research fighters...would be very nice to have it in the game.

LeeSkye · 09-03-2002, 07:09 PM

Great to hear of the progress being made. I actually got "lured" to .400 when Title Fight came under their care and I ended up a big fan of OOTP4. I was always a big fan of Title Fight all the way back to the 70's and the board games and I look forward to the great additions .400 will bring. I can't wait, "BRING IN ON!"

mh2365 · 09-03-2002, 09:42 PM

Jim,

just wanted to say I have title bout 2001 and played it alot when I first got it .... your CS was great, on two seperate occasions I had problems and e-mailed you directly and you answered the next day .... now one thing I'd like to see is the ability to start in a certain year and have the fighters from that year be the only ones available ... and as years pass more historical fighters become available ... probably hard to program but it'd be cool

jrmorgan56 · 09-04-2002, 03:41 PM

I think the hardest thing about that option is having to add a field for fighter creation that contains the years he/she was active. Not impossible....just have to update all the real fighters with the game...and maybe a slight tolerance factor (as an option) for fantasy universes where a fighter's years may differ by a year or two, beginning or ending.

The more I keep thinking about that option, the more I like it.

Jim Trunzo · 09-04-2002, 03:55 PM

Actually, the new game is definitely going to address "aging" in "fantasy" fighters that you contract to fight for you in the "MANAGEMENT" module. "Aging" in the actual simulation with the real fighters can be simulated by setting a career mode.

Another fascinating element that is going to be added and will be a must for the "fantasy fighters" and an option for the real fighters will be increasing and/or decreasing attributes based upon points earned or lost via fights.

For example, let's say you sign a novice fighter to a contract. He wins his first bout and earns 4 attribute points. You might choose to spend 3 to up his Endurance by 1 and bank the other point; you might spend 4 to up his punching accuracy by 1; you might save them all until you get 8 points to up his Ring Generalship; the possibilities are endless and you get to shape the fighter as you wish. Take that times all the fighters in your "stable" and you can see how immersive the new game is toing to be.

Of course, losses force you to deduct from a fighter's skills. Theoritically, if you mismanage a fighter and overmatch him (or he simply gets some bad decisions and/or has some bad luck), he can turn quickly into a real bum. Then, depending upon his contract, you might be able to dump him or you might be stuck with him for a few more fights. You might also be able to "buy out" his contract to cut your losses.

jrmorgan56 · 09-04-2002, 03:59 PM

Jim pops in every now and then and "teases" us!

Sounds great though! I like how you can shape the fighter the way you want...determine how you want to train him/her.

Cap · 09-04-2002, 10:41 PM

Him/her? You're not one of those new age guys who believes that girls should be allowed to beat each others brains out too are you? (Groan!)

I am just enough of a fossil to believe that women can manage fighters, but they should be smart enough to stay out of the ring.
I will not watch female boxers.

Cap

jrmorgan56 · 09-05-2002, 09:02 AM

Nahhhh, not me. I just don't want to offend anyone out there...I too don't like to watch female boxing, but if they want to fight, I am not going to argue it.

Hootowl 9 · 10-01-2002, 06:44 PM

Jim,
Thank you for the "State of the Game" Address. I also, like many others have the old Title Bout Board game sitting around,(and still play it, plus love reading the bio's) and have played all the other Game Titles listed in another thread. Can't tell you how much I am looking forward to the release of the ultimate boxing sim!
Sounds like you now have the resources available to you, to achieve what must of been a life long goal for the Trunzo brothers!

The game sounds so comprehensive, the only thing missing is the sweating guy in the second row with the cheap suit and bad cigar! When I seen the Trunzo Brothers involved with this, I was already "sold" on the game.

I want to take this opportunity to say "Thank You" to Tom & Jim Trunzo for the untold hours of pleasure your games and efforts have given myself, my family, and others! (400 Studios as well) In my opinion the Trunzo Brothers are a "National Treasure" whose love for the sport of boxing has enrichen and provided much entertainment for us all. You guy's have effected many I think. Thank You!

Best Regard's,
Fred C. Kroner
Milwaukee Wis.

08-01-2002, 09:16 PM	#1
Jim Trunzo OOTP Developments Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leechburg, PA Posts: 739	"State of the Game" Address "STATE OF THE GAME" ADDRESS: The Latest on the Evolution of Our Boxing/Fight Management Simulation As many of you know, Title Bout Championship Boxing has undergone many evolutions since it's debut as Truco Championship Boxing. It has, in prior iterations, gone under the name Title Bout: Game of Professional Boxing, TKO Pro Boxing, APBA Pro Boxing, Title Bout for Windows, and most recently, Title Fight 2001. Now, in partnership with .400 Software Studios, "Title Bout Championship Boxing" aims to correct all previous mistakes, turn all weaknesses into strengths and add an entirely new concept to the simulation by creating a 100% interactive side to the product. With work proceeding at a feverish pace in order to have the newest rendition of the boxing simulation ready for Christmas delivery, we are re-examining every part of the basic design. In the process, we have become aware of any number of programming errors and we have -- admittedly -- uncovered some design flaws that should have been obvious but for some reason had been overlooked until now. Here's some of what we've found and have re-worked to improve both the accuracy and/or the playability of the boxing simulation: SCORING: _Currently the simulation produces too many 10-8 rounds and too many 10-10 rounds. After purchasing some "insider" information and conducting our own research, we found that our scoring system exceeded the actual number of 10-8, 10-10 and even 10-7 rounds by ten to fifteen percent. The 10-8 round problem (and ultimate solution) should have been obvious. Fighters are currently rewarded with anywhere from 6 to 10 points for scoring a knockdown. The end-of-the-round scoring routine also deducts 1 point from the loser for each knockdown suffered during the round. By giving points and subtracting for the knockdown, we were, in effect, penalizing the downed fighter twice. In many cases, the "double whammy" resulted in 10-8 or 10-7 rounds. The 10-10 rounds occurred because the current scoring module was too lenient when scoring rounds in which the points scored by each fighter were within "x" points of each other. The "fix" to both problems were relatively simple. However, rather than stop with just readjusting the range of numbers for close rounds and eliminating the "double dipping" when a knockdown was scored, we have also rated almost 200 judges for their predilection to award 10-10 rounds and 10-8 rounds. Some judges, we've discovered, never scored a 10-10 round in over 300 rounds scored in a given year, for example. FIGHT SCHEDULER: The current scheduler works fine as is and allows the user to handle many useful scenarios. Once again, though, we wanted to address the requests of numerous users and add more flexibility and ease-of-use to the Scheduler. We have done so by allowing the user to have the scheduler randomly schedule matches. You will now be able to select a fighter and have the computer randomly schedule him against "x" number of other fighters or simply schedule "x" number of fights in a given division. Options for including randomly schedule bouts in a fighter's record/history will also be available. COMMENTARY: The "thorn" in the program's side has been the inability to find a happy medium between the actual fight and the color commentary. The latter wouldn't be an issue if it had ever worked the way it was intended. Conditional statements were to dictate how often and when certain comments were displayed in order to avoid redundancy and ambiguity. However, for some reason attempts to implement the conditions failed more often than they worked. All the commentary -- every single line -- has been pulled, put into an interactive database by .400 Software Studio's programmer Andreas Raht, and will be reworked before the release of Title Bout Championship Boxing. NEW CATEGORIES: With the advent of the "manager" as an entity, numerous new categories will be appearing in the game. Fighter's will have additional personality categories added and the manager himself will be rated in numerous areas. Other existing categories will take on even more significance (like Intelligence) and the ability to "draw" fans will become paramount, in many cases becoming more important that talent when it comes to the promotional and financial aspects of the new modules addressing those issues. Roy Jones, for example, may well be the most talented fighter boxing today but he's never been a top draw. Arturo Gatti, on the other hand, has lost 5 of his last 10 fights and is line for several more million dollar pay-days and has been called "the best television fighter of all time." MORE ON MANAGING: The Management/Financial module is coming into even better focus as the design nears completion. You will, as a manager, have "X" dollars as your starting bankroll and no fighters in your stable. You can recruit any fighter that is not already signed to a contract. However, there is no guarantee that the fighter will sign with you. You will create a contract to submit to the fighter with whom you are negotiating, deciding upon length of contract, signing bonus, "loss" clause, monthly allowance, your percentage of the fighter's purse, etc. The more you offer the fighter, the more your base chance of signing him increases; the tougher you negotiate and the less you offer, the smaller your chance to sign him. Of course, the higher the fighter's "Signing Rating" (Overall Rating plus Draw Rating), the more he'll expect and the tougher he'll be to sign. As your Manager Rating improves (based upon the success of the fighters in your stable), the higher your base percentage becomes and the more your recognition and reputation grow. After you sign a fighter or stable of fighters, you'll have to find a promoter with whom to work in order to arrange matches for them. Then, you'll have to earn your money by training and promoting and keeping your charges under control. RANKINGS: A completely new formula for calculating "Performance Points" has been devised. Not only will the points earned or lost be more realistic, it will dramaticly affect the ranking system. A crucial change will be that only a fighter's last 10 fights will be used to determine his ranking. Before, fighters with a lot of fights could gain an insurmmountable number of points. Too often, a fighter with a record of 30-10-3 would rank higher than a fighter 20-2. That will no longer occur.

08-16-2002, 05:00 PM	#5
Cap Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Large Province in God's Country Posts: 7,917	Improving Perfection One thing I'd like to see is an improvement to the fight creation process. There should be three windows visible during this process. One is a list of all the available fighters in a given weight class. From this window you would click on a fighter's name and his individual record AND ranking would appear in a second window so you could evaluate him. When satisfied with him as a participant in a match, you'd click on him and drag him into the third window to actually set up the fight. As for individual records, I'd like to see prime fighting weight and country of origin added. Maybe height too. This would give you a better mental picture of the fighter. Of course, you'd have to have individual fighter portraits too. Cap __________________ "...There were Giants in Those Days.."

08-20-2002, 06:03 PM	#6
RANGER11JP All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,363	FIGHT SCHEDULER Great to hear Jim. In regard to the FIGHT SCHEDULER, would it be possible to have a limit or recovery minimum from a fighters last bout? Maybe based on how well he did or how badly he was beaten up? __________________ BASEBALL, HOCKEY AND BOXING FAN

08-20-2002, 07:05 PM	#8
Jim Trunzo OOTP Developments Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leechburg, PA Posts: 739	Reply to CAP Cap, your "3-window" idea is not only feasible and desirable but also in the works. It's going to be pretty much as you described. The problem with the "added info" you'd like is that it's horribly time consumming and sometimes very difficult to get. However, we'll give it a try.

08-20-2002, 10:06 PM	#9
Cap Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Large Province in God's Country Posts: 7,917	Jim Has Entered the Building! Jim, great to hear from you. About the added info you referred to. Why not make it possible for the individual gamer to enter those stats? It would save you guys from a helluva lot of research. I'd like to be able to put those in myself.....unless of course this option makes it impossible to import fighters we've already created. Keep punchin' Cap __________________ "...There were Giants in Those Days.."

08-01-2002, 09:56 PM	#2
Scott Vibert Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: My Computer Posts: 8,202	Sounds great Jim!

08-02-2002, 08:58 AM	#3
jrmorgan56 Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: New York Posts: 459	Wow. I am really impressed with all the new features and work being put into this new version. Something to look forward to this Christmas! I really like the new performace ranking system. With all these changes though, Jim, and extra attributes for fighters, how easy will it be to use/import fighters from my current game?

08-04-2002, 09:51 AM	#4
Mark Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 64	It all sounds very comprehensive, Jim. I am heartened to see that you have tackled earlier difficulties head-on, addressed them and offered solutions. You have stated in the past that it was your wish to make Title Bout (or whatever it is to be called) the ultimate boxing simulator. Based on what you have told us of the game, perhaps you will achieve your ambition. I truly hope you do.

08-20-2002, 07:02 PM	#7
Jim Trunzo OOTP Developments Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leechburg, PA Posts: 739	Yes, as a matter of fact, we have built an entire system for mandated rest between fights, including official suspensions if a fighter has suffered a knockout, etc. Any fighter who fights BEFORE his mandated rest is up will suffer penalties to various ratings.

08-20-2002, 10:10 PM	#10
jrmorgan56 Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: New York Posts: 459	I agree with Cap...Just leave the blanks and leave it to your fans, Jim. I would love to have that option available to me while I research fighters...would be very nice to have it in the game.

09-03-2002, 07:09 PM	#11
LeeSkye All Star Starter Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Igloo Posts: 1,279	Great to hear of the progress being made. I actually got "lured" to .400 when Title Fight came under their care and I ended up a big fan of OOTP4. I was always a big fan of Title Fight all the way back to the 70's and the board games and I look forward to the great additions .400 will bring. I can't wait, "BRING IN ON!"

09-03-2002, 09:42 PM	#12
mh2365 Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: louisville Posts: 14,941 Infractions: 0/2 (101)	Jim, just wanted to say I have title bout 2001 and played it alot when I first got it .... your CS was great, on two seperate occasions I had problems and e-mailed you directly and you answered the next day .... now one thing I'd like to see is the ability to start in a certain year and have the fighters from that year be the only ones available ... and as years pass more historical fighters become available ... probably hard to program but it'd be cool

09-04-2002, 03:41 PM	#13
jrmorgan56 Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: New York Posts: 459	I think the hardest thing about that option is having to add a field for fighter creation that contains the years he/she was active. Not impossible....just have to update all the real fighters with the game...and maybe a slight tolerance factor (as an option) for fantasy universes where a fighter's years may differ by a year or two, beginning or ending. The more I keep thinking about that option, the more I like it. __________________ CornerWork

09-04-2002, 03:55 PM	#14
Jim Trunzo OOTP Developments Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leechburg, PA Posts: 739	Actually, the new game is definitely going to address "aging" in "fantasy" fighters that you contract to fight for you in the "MANAGEMENT" module. "Aging" in the actual simulation with the real fighters can be simulated by setting a career mode. Another fascinating element that is going to be added and will be a must for the "fantasy fighters" and an option for the real fighters will be increasing and/or decreasing attributes based upon points earned or lost via fights. For example, let's say you sign a novice fighter to a contract. He wins his first bout and earns 4 attribute points. You might choose to spend 3 to up his Endurance by 1 and bank the other point; you might spend 4 to up his punching accuracy by 1; you might save them all until you get 8 points to up his Ring Generalship; the possibilities are endless and you get to shape the fighter as you wish. Take that times all the fighters in your "stable" and you can see how immersive the new game is toing to be. Of course, losses force you to deduct from a fighter's skills. Theoritically, if you mismanage a fighter and overmatch him (or he simply gets some bad decisions and/or has some bad luck), he can turn quickly into a real bum. Then, depending upon his contract, you might be able to dump him or you might be stuck with him for a few more fights. You might also be able to "buy out" his contract to cut your losses.

09-04-2002, 03:59 PM	#15
jrmorgan56 Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: New York Posts: 459	Jim pops in every now and then and "teases" us! Sounds great though! I like how you can shape the fighter the way you want...determine how you want to train him/her. __________________ CornerWork

09-04-2002, 10:41 PM	#16
Cap Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Large Province in God's Country Posts: 7,917	Caveman Boxing Fan Him/her? You're not one of those new age guys who believes that girls should be allowed to beat each others brains out too are you? (Groan!) I am just enough of a fossil to believe that women can manage fighters, but they should be smart enough to stay out of the ring. I will not watch female boxers. Cap

09-05-2002, 09:02 AM	#17
jrmorgan56 Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: New York Posts: 459	Misconception...! Nahhhh, not me. I just don't want to offend anyone out there...I too don't like to watch female boxing, but if they want to fight, I am not going to argue it. __________________ CornerWork

10-01-2002, 06:44 PM	#18
Hootowl 9 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Genesee Depot, Wis. Posts: 209	Thank You Trunzo Brothers Jim, Thank you for the "State of the Game" Address. I also, like many others have the old Title Bout Board game sitting around,(and still play it, plus love reading the bio's) and have played all the other Game Titles listed in another thread. Can't tell you how much I am looking forward to the release of the ultimate boxing sim! Sounds like you now have the resources available to you, to achieve what must of been a life long goal for the Trunzo brothers! The game sounds so comprehensive, the only thing missing is the sweating guy in the second row with the cheap suit and bad cigar! When I seen the Trunzo Brothers involved with this, I was already "sold" on the game. I want to take this opportunity to say "Thank You" to Tom & Jim Trunzo for the untold hours of pleasure your games and efforts have given myself, my family, and others! (400 Studios as well) In my opinion the Trunzo Brothers are a "National Treasure" whose love for the sport of boxing has enrichen and provided much entertainment for us all. You guy's have effected many I think. Thank You! Best Regard's, Fred C. Kroner Milwaukee Wis.