Rebuilding...

[BoSox35]

Has anyone ever rebuilt/restocked their teams? (Indians, Blue Jays in real life?) if so how'd it work out, and what were some highlights?

I'm asking in light of thinking of rebuilding my red Sox team after back-to-back-to-back championships.

[sianews]

Ha. Don't waste your time, all you'll end up with is a sore finger from all the rejected trade offer you'll receive because the 4.1 trade AI refuses to part with even the worst of prospects even if your offering a star in the prime of his career in return.

[Anonymous Ghost]

Couple of tips in general on trading:

1) Only expect to be able to trade big salary players during the off-season. During the season, a $10m player is virtually untradeable. The AI sets its payroll near expected revenue figures and it won't intentionally run in the red.

2) IMHO, the best players to trade are $100,000 stars in the final year of their contracts. You can get *a lot* for them (as in a couple of really good prospects). And if you really want the player, you can try to sign him as a FA the next off-season.

[JAttractive]

I don't see why some people are saying this. Ok I admit, unless the player is a super star you can't get much in the way of prospects but the AI has always basically been this way (only super stars can get the top prospects) and before it was just WAY too easy to rebuild a super team of prospects. I could maintain a World Series winning team year after year, never using free agents, simply by trading a star player each year for a load of top prospects and signing my own players to long term deals. This was highly unrealistic in my opinion and I was forced to adopt house rules just to balance things.

Look at the current rebuilding Blue Jays, it is not as though they can easily get rid of players like Shannon Stewart, Jose Cruz, Carlos Delgado, Steve Parris, Esteban Loaiza etc. even though they are desperately trying to get prospects for these guys. Sure they managed to unload a few players earlier in the year and got a few decent youngsters but it has been next to impossible to get rid of these guys for anything of value. This is much like OOTP4 where I find I can unload a few not so super guys to the right team in need/who scouts them higher than they should but you can't just unload and rebuild in a year like you could before.

Still I make trades all the time for prospects without much problem.

Example, I just started a brand new fictional league as the Montreal Expos and with a 2 for fan rating to start I was hampered with a low payroll. During the season I managed to unload a reliever with a 6 rating era for another reliever with a 6 rating era and with a 23 year old starting pitcher with A/G/G/A/G talent ratings added in (0 era rating but worth the risk as the other reliever was very similar). This was an offer offered by the AI while I had him on the trade block. Sure that prospect is not overly great but worth a shot when I may get a lucky talent increase.

The next trade was a turn-around of this new reliever for a 28 year old starter with a 6 era but a big salary.. again offered by the AI. Knowing it was a great deal talent-wise but skewed salary wise I took it anyway and then later in the year offered this starter to a team deep in the playoff hunt and managed to get their top pitching prospect, a 21 year old SP with G/A/G/G/G ratings who is one of the top prospects in baseball. With the surprising play of my team I had a 10 point increase in fan base and was able to pay his salary for a few months and then offer him to a team desperate for pitching help.

Then right at the deadline I was able to trade another reliever, again a 6 for era, for a 19 year old F/A/A/A/A SP prospect. Now obviously this pitcher is a poor talent but at 19 years old he only needs a few lucky talent increases and I will have made a steal of a deal.

So in total I managed to pick up three SP prospect deals during the year and had only to give up two slightly above average relievers in total compared to the team I started with. One of these is a "star" prospect, one of these is an above average and one is below average but at 19 years could blossom under my great minor league development coaching staff.


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I have to say I like this much better now. Now don't take me for some fan boy either who thinks everything done here is golden... In fact I feel it is far from perfect and I would like to see WAY more advances made in the trade AI. I just think it is an improvement from before and not a step backwards as you seem to feel it is but this is all personal taste.

[QuestGAV]

I've actually found it EASIER to get a good number of prospects for solid veterans in 4.1. Maybe I'm just making better offers than I normally do, but in trading guys like Manny Ramirez, Juan Gonzalez, Javier Vasquez, and Vladimir Guerrero in my recent career league I've always gotten great value for them. In fact, in some cases I've traded 3-4 good veterans for 2 young superstars and 3 great prospects.

Vladdy, Vasquez, and two good veterans netted me Beckett, Pujols, and 3 great prospects in 2004 IIRC. Anyway, I think the trick is finding out which players cause the AI to bust a nut. Some players that look good to you aren't always as enticing to the AI.

[WileyEquid]

In reply to the previous, I haven't found it exactly easy to trade a proven veteran for a bright prospect..... in the offseason, that is.... I found this especially so when a team had lost a particularly good player to FA...probably because those stars were on teams that relatively sucked...bad chemistry perhaps because there were some good players in place..... Anyway, I traded a proven veteran pitcher in the offseason during the last year of his contract to the NYY. NYY had struggled in two previous seasons at pitching (and failed to either win the division or faded....and watched the AI trade away a couple aging or non-performing vets....)... I had 3 prospects on that team that I wanted.....two infielders with bright futures, and one proven outfielder ("put 8 other players in your lineup" and he had the stats) who was slighlty older (30) who had been obtained that year as a FA for 2.6 mil...

Bottomline...you can't always get what you want!! But you can try, try...and you just might find....wait, I think someone said that already.... oh yeah, he's the manager of my NYY team....perfect place for a big-lipped aging rock star!! (Celebrity Rock Star managers league)

[Scott Vibert]

Rebuilding is great, nothing quite as satisfying as seeing your home grown prospects hit the big time and star.

I have had no problems getting prospects from the AI since 4.1 In fact I was surprised with some of the deals I got through. Remember to offer players at the AI teams weaknesses, don't over value your own guys (which is something I often do, when the guy has been good for you for so long, sometimes its hard to let go of your loyalties), and think about the age and money. If you offer a star player in his mid-30's the AI is no less likely to give you the top flight prospects you used to get for him, given the guys age and salary.

[Anonymous Ghost]

<i>Bottomline...you can't always get what you want!! But you can try, try...and you just might find....</i>

I think that's a good point: you have to be willing to try a couple of different combinations for players.


My approach is perhaps a little different than some who have trouble making trades: I decide what guy I want to trade and then seek out the best package for him. For instance, in my current season I'm trying to unload 1B Ben Strouble (great hitter, in his final $100k season). He's a great hitter (7/8/7), but I have a solid guy at AAA (Bryant Blaine, 24 yrs-old), so he's fungible. To make this trade I didn't go to the Top 100 Prospects report and totally sell myself on only a couple of prospects.

Instead, I went through the trade window to the 31 other teams and found all the ones that needed a 1B (there were 7). Then I went through their Top 10 Prospects report and narrowed down the field to who had young talent that interested me (4 teams). I then went through and made offers to all 4 teams (2 were unwilling to deal their best prospects), and then settled on a package of 3 of their top 4 prospects (all of whom made my Top 10 list upon being acquired) plus a decent 4th starter whose $3m contract expires at the end of the season. In total, the process probably took me about 10-15 minutes and I scribbled notes on about two pages of scrap paper.

[WileyEquid]

Have to agree with Ghost...Half the fun...no more than half the fun is building a home-grown team. I've had a few players that have matured into awesome players either coming up through the farm system (and remaining faithful in them despite mediocre minors seasons), and then getting the chance to play in play of an injured or non-performing vet...and blossoming.... !!! It's not often, but it keeps me excited enough to try and find "nuggets."

I think this always happens in MLB.....you have guys that are okay in one organization, and they get somewhere else and they progress mightyly....but not always...I've had received supposedly blue-chip prospects that just bombed it...either getting injured a lot....or just never meeting up to their hype....

Proven veterans...or young players with which a team can build an organization are not easily "stolen" away.....I like that challenge....I like the challenge that I have to suck a few years (and believe me I scream at my players...my S.O. wonders why all the frustration....okay, she's not a baseball fan and humors me all the time.....)....and then slowly I build and get closer..... I have won divisions but never gotten past the League Championship series....which whets my appetite even more to build and build....and hope (do I sound like a Cubs fan or a Sox fan or what??).... I wanna win, but so do a lot of teams in MLB.... It's as close as you can get to rubbing your face in the diamond on a slide to second....or being able to tell Steinbrenner that he's a prick....and buying a team guarantees nothing!!!

[CMH]

can anyone assure me that they've seen the AI do one of the two consistantly in the game...

(1) Huge opportunity to make the playoffs after not being in for quite a while (so its a team that has struggled in the past) and trades away prospects to add that missing all-star piece

(2) Realizes their payroll is way too high and needs to rebuild. Trades away All-Stars for prospects.

I know this is part of the game, but I just dont see it enough. It just doesnt seem to me that the AI is aggressive enough.

I did witness my first off season with the 4.1 update. It was great to see A.J. Burnett receive 14,500,000 dollars a year for 5 years from Boston. It made him the highest paid player in the game. That impressed me b/c he hasnt been great but has great potential and it also impressed me b/c he demanded 13 million dollars and stuck to it. Prior to the patch guys would demand 13 and then sign for 9 million.

However, I have not seen (1) or (2) through 5 years of playing. What I do see is the teams just not resigning players so they could cut payroll. What I dont see is teams trading away high prices stars to make a run.

FOr example, Kansas City in my league is struggling big time. The second highest players makes about 2 million a year. THey have lost money three years in a row. Their highest paid player makes 9 million a year. Yep, tahts right...9 million a year. The guys is a star player. So, why did they not sign some of their young players, who would demand less than half the price, just so they could cut payroll? Why not trade the star (who's only 31 years old...still so many years left to play AND signed for another 2 years) for a couple of prospects and rebuild for real?

[Dwolfson20]

Prior to the patch guys would demand 13 and then sign for 9 million.

Speaking of Mark Prior...

In 2008 the Cubs decided not to give him an extension, no clue what they were thinking there. But then in the FA period they inked him to a huge $14.895 million contract. I like the way the patch improved free agency, it seems that more teams try for the top stars and offer them more money. I actually got beat for the first time ever by an AI team for someone I wanted, and then again, so that tells me it's doing a much better job.

[Malleus Dei]

Pay attention to what the other team needs.

Don't trade guys with big salaries during the season.

Trade guys in the last years of their contracts.

Keep a few guys on the trading block and see what offers you get. Most trading block offers stink, but once in a while a real winner comes along.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally posted by Anonymous Ghost
Instead, I went through the trade window to the 31 other teams and found all the ones that needed a 1B (there were 7). Then I went through their Top 10 Prospects report and narrowed down the field to who had young talent that interested me (4 teams). I then went through and made offers to all 4 teams (2 were unwilling to deal their best prospects), and then settled on a package of 3 of their top 4 prospects (all of whom made my Top 10 list upon being acquired) plus a decent 4th starter whose $3m contract expires at the end of the season. In total, the process probably took me about 10-15 minutes and I scribbled notes on about two pages of scrap paper.

This is a well-written clinic on how to maximize value when you are getting rid of somone. I do the same thing. Sometimes it doesn't work, but generally it does.

[JAttractive]

Yeah I do this all the time but I find it is a bit easy to get the best of the deals this way so I try to attach house rules such as only making trades that make sense for the AI as well.

If I think they are a rebuilding team like myself I won't go take all their prospects on them but if they only have a few weaknesses (and so likely a contending team) I will go ahead with the trade. Still I find myself needing a lot less house rules than I previously did with the pre-patch AI and that is a GOOD thing.

[Anonymous Ghost]

can anyone assure me that they've seen the AI do one of the two consistantly in the game...

(1) Huge opportunity to make the playoffs after not being in for quite a while (so its a team that has struggled in the past) and trades away prospects to add that missing all-star piece

(2) Realizes their payroll is way too high and needs to rebuild. Trades away All-Stars for prospects.

I know this is part of the game, but I just dont see it enough. It just doesnt seem to me that the AI is aggressive enough.


I'd agree that the AI is more risk averse than a real GM is. Rather than pursue a strategy that might serve to dramatically enhance their chances at improving for either the short-term or long-term, the AI seems content to play for a regular .500 season where it doesn't lose money. Humans have a more sophisticated understanding of the game, risk/benefit assessment, etc. and as such we can develop and execute a more effective strategy.

Something that I've been considering doing in my solo league is temporarily taking control of a few teams at deadline time: any team under .400 or within five games of their division leader. The one restriction is that the deal can't involve my team (the Giants) or dismantle a division contender.


Thanks for the kudos, Malleus.

[SSG Troyer]

Originally posted by BoSox35
Has anyone ever rebuilt/restocked their teams? (Indians, Blue Jays in real life?) if so how'd it work out, and what were some highlights?

I'm asking in light of thinking of rebuilding my red Sox team after back-to-back-to-back championships.

This is exactly how I play. I create myself as a super-star prospect, take over the team to draft "me" (1st or 2nd, so the team is at least coming off a bad year), and take them to back-to-back WS appearances (sp?). Then I take over the financially worst-off team and arrange an AI acceptable trade for "me" and rebuild them. If and when they get to 2 WS in a row, I repeat the process.

If I can't broker an AI acceptable trade, I'll force the issue, but I've not yet had to...

[DHS23]

So in my solo league, Atlanta put Jeremy Guthrie up on the trading block. I was in need of another SP since two of mine were on the DL (one for the season, another for 3 more weeks). The guy that was out for the season was actually in AAA, but was my "fill-in" incase anyone got injured.

So when they put Guthrie on the block, I jumped on the chance and tried to trade for him. I tried a couple prospects and a weak CF (one of their needs) and they shut me down. Finally, I offered Mark Buehrle to them, and they said they'd accept the offer.

I wasn't so high on getting rid of Mark seeing as it'd leave me with just one lefty in the rotation, my 5th starter. But, Mark was in the last year of his contract, and refused to talk to me after I offered "just" $5M/4 years to him. I felt after signing both Freddy Garcia and Jim Edmonds to contracts over $10M each, and still having to resign Alex Rodriguez at $9.5M, I just didn't want to sign Buehrle to that big of a contract.

I then went back to the trade screen, and selected Guthrie and another decent pitching prospect that would be a "project player", meaning he'd be a 4 or 5 starter, but if he increased in a rating or two, he very easily could be a 1, 2, or 3 starter. Then I picked Buehrle on my team, and they accepted it.

So pretty much, it was Jeremy Guthrie (still had another 3 years at a minimum contract) and a decent pitching prospect for Mark Buehrle, who I felt I wouldn't accept a lower pay to stay with me.

So it does take something to get those good prospects or great young players. You just have to toy around with different deals, and you might have to give up a player you don't want to give up in the end.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally posted by Anonymous Ghost
Thanks for the kudos, Malleus.

Oh, no. Thank YOU. I see so much posing around here that it's a joy and delight to see something written by someone who obviously knows how to do something subtle and significant in the game and can also explain it very clearly.