National League MVP 2006 Poll

[darkhorse]

There's a quite good thread on this subject, so I figured a poll would be in order so that we can see whether Beltran or Pujols takes the day.

Stats for the players linked below.

Brandon Webb

John Smoltz

Carlos Zambrano

Bronson Arroyo

Matt Holliday

Miguel Cabrera

Lance Berkman

Rafael Furcal

Carlos Beltran

David Wright

Ryan Howard

Jason Bay

Adrian Gonzalez

Albert Pujols

Alfonso Soriano

[blgoblue2]

Pujols, Cabrera, Berkman, Beltran in that order

[marc]

Originally Posted by blgoblue2

Pujols, Cabrera, Berkman, Beltran in that order

Umm Howard?

[marc]

Why is Beltran even in the discussion? Honestly....


Pujols, Howard, Cabrera, Berkman are on a different stratosphere.

[darkhorse]

Originally Posted by marc

Why is Beltran even in the discussion? Honestly.....

.......he is the best player.

I concur.

[marc]

Originally Posted by darkhorse

I concur.

A mets fan eh?

[darkhorse]

Originally Posted by marc

A mets fan eh?

Nah, merely noting that Beltran has been a resident of the exosphere in 2006.

[marc]

Originally Posted by darkhorse

Nah, merely noting that Beltran has been a resident of the exosphere in 2006.

With his .275 average being put in the middle of the best lineup in the NL? Berkman, Pujols, Howard, and Cabrera, have all been MUCH MUCH better.

[Jordan]

Pujols, Cabrera, Howard, Berkman are the only true candidates IMO.

If the Cards make the playoffs, Albert has it locked. Plus, he got jobbed a year or two when Bonds won.

[darkhorse]

Originally Posted by marc

With his .275 average being put in the middle of the best lineup in the NL? Berkman, Pujols, Howard, and Cabrera, have all been MUCH MUCH better.

Batting average?

His OBP is an excellent .387 and his isolated power is a scary .323. AND, he plays a prime defensive position very well. He's the best player in the game in the senior circuit.

[marc]

Originally Posted by darkhorse

Batting average?

His OBP is an excellent .387 and his isolated power is a scary .323. AND, he plays a prime defensive position very well. He's the best player in the game in the senior circuit.

That excellent OBP is still not even close to that of Pujols or Howard. We might as well be hyping Andruw Jones for the MVP.

[darkhorse]

Originally Posted by marc

That excellent OBP is still not even close to that of Pujols or Howard. We might as well be hyping Andruw Jones for the MVP.

They've both created more runs at the plate than Beltran, but the replacement level for offense at 1B is much higher than in CF, AND Beltran has far more defensive value.

Equivalent averages for each MLB position in 2006 below.

P 0.133
C 0.252
1B 0.279
2B 0.255
3B 0.268
SS 0.254
LF 0.271
CF 0.261
RF 0.268
Oth 0.265

[marc]

Originally Posted by darkhorse

They've both created more runs at the plate than Beltran, but the replacement level for offense at 1B is much higher than in CF, AND Beltran has far more defensive value.

Equivalent averages for each MLB position in 2006 below.

P 0.133
C 0.252
1B 0.279
2B 0.255
3B 0.268
SS 0.254
LF 0.271
CF 0.261
RF 0.268
Oth 0.265

Ok so if Jones has created more runs and is a better CF (which he is) then why not Jones for MVP?

[darkhorse]

Equivalent averages and equivalent runs for the trio of candidates.

Beltran .325 113
Pujols ,356 135
Howard .343 139

You figure in the .018 point difference in average offense between 1B and CF, and Beltran moves neck and neck with these guys. You factor in defense and he leaves them in his wake.

[darkhorse]

Originally Posted by marc

Ok so if Jones has created more runs and is a better CF (which he is) then why not Jones for MVP?

Umm.........because he hasn't?

Equivalent average and Equivalent runs for Andruw below.


Beltran .325 113
Pujols ,356 135
Howard .343 139
Andruw .302 105

[marc]

Originally Posted by darkhorse

Umm.........because he hasn't?

Equivalent average and Equivalent runs for Andruw below.


Beltran .325 113
Pujols ,356 135
Howard .343 139
Andruw .302 105

Then why did you say he did in the previous post?

Anyways, you can throw these metrics at me all day, that's not going to change the fact that Howard, Pujols, Berkman, and Cabrera have had much better seasons with less help around them in the lineup.

The simple fact that Beltran plays CF and these guys play in the infield doesn't change that.

[darkhorse]

Originally Posted by marc

Then why did you say he did in the previous post.

I didn't. You are confused. The two players I was referring to were Ryan Howard and Albert Pujols.

[darkhorse]

Originally Posted by marc

Anyways, you can throw these metrics at me all day, that's not going to change the fact that Howard, Pujols, Berkman, and Cabrera have had much better seasons with less help around them in the lineup.

Nah, it's just contrary/inconvenient evidence that they haven't.

Originally Posted by marc

The simple fact that Beltran plays CF and these guys play in the infield doesn't change that.

The position you play most certainly has a bearing on your value. That's just baseball common sense.

[marc]

Originally Posted by darkhorse

Nah, it's just contrary/inconvenient evidence that they haven't.




The position you play most certainly has a bearing on your value. That's just baseball common sense.

It doesn't have any bearing on an MVP race. When you're building a team it certainly does.

[mlyons]

You can't give Beltran credit for being a centerfielder and for being a better defensive player than Pujols -- both are just as far above average at their position as the other, so far as I can tell. If you're going to discount Pujols' offensive contributions because first basemen typically produce more offense than centerfielders, it doesn't make sense to also discount his defense because center field is a more difficult defensive position. The reason centerfielders typically produce less offense than first basemen is because it is a more difficult defensive position.

In other words, when adjusting for position, you should only do it once.