How MLEs should work (according to me)

ctorg · 06-27-2006, 01:30 PM

This is how they should work, in my opinion, to make the game more flexible, rather than how they do work, which no one seems to have a good handle on. This is my opinion - something I'd like to see implemented - and I'd like to know what others think.

MLEs should affect current ability levels of players but not their potentials. PCMs should affect both current and potential levels. In this way, we can create leagues where players are brought in at specific levels of development but can still progress.

For instance, let's say I have an independent AA-level league and the MLEs, for simplicity's sake, are all .800. PCMs are all 1.000. Players coming into that league should be at 80% of major league level as far as their current abilities, but their potentials should be major league level. That way, they can get better and have some hope of being signed by major league teams if they do very well for the indy leagues.

This would be very consistent with what MLEs actually are. When you look at a minor leaguer's stats and figure the MLE, you are not looking at his potential, but where he stands right now if he had been in the majors.

I am trying to create a universe in which minor leagues are not affiliated. Minor leaguers get free agency after one year and can sign on with big league clubs and all at the end of their first year. Currently, I'm not sure the game is able to do this well. Having my proposed setup for MLEs would make this much more manageable.

I'd like to see MLEs modified so that this is how they work within the game. It would, in my opinion, make them much more useful by making them something substantively different from PCMs.

My only issue now is that, for all I know, this is how they work. But from what I've read around here, it isn't. No one really seems to have a good grasp of them.

Questdog · 06-27-2006, 03:13 PM

I believe that is they way the official explanation believes they work. I haven't done any personal studies to see if in fact that is true or not.

Carplos · 06-27-2006, 06:44 PM

They seem to work this way just fine, unless the parent league's MLEs are set to .800 (or whatever.)

ctorg · 06-28-2006, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carplos

They seem to work this way just fine, unless the parent league's MLEs are set to .800 (or whatever.)

That's just it. I'm talking about unaffiliated leagues. That means they are parent leagues. If you have an unaffiliated AA league, as far as I can tell, it's not possible to get it to behave like a real unaffiliated AA league. For a good chunk of baseball history, the minors were unaffiliated. Right now, OOTP doesn't quite simulate that well. It would work if MLEs did not affect potentials.

Carplos · 06-28-2006, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctorg

That's just it. I'm talking about unaffiliated leagues. That means they are parent leagues. If you have an unaffiliated AA league, as far as I can tell, it's not possible to get it to behave like a real unaffiliated AA league. For a good chunk of baseball history, the minors were unaffiliated. Right now, OOTP doesn't quite simulate that well. It would work if MLEs did not affect potentials.

I'm talking about unaffiliated/independent/whatever leagues too.

The only way I've been able to get MLB-potential in lesser leagues is to create the league at whatever MLE you want to set it up, but after creation, change the MLEs to 1.000 and use PCMs to get the quality of players I want. It'll create all future prospects with the MLB-potentials, but the players will be created at the default Single-A MLEs or lowest minors.

I believe the game uses the players in the league, finances, etc to determine "league quality" so the MLEs shouldn't matter. It's not perfect, but it seems to work well enough, as long as you have it so players can easily leave the league (otherwise it'll end up becoming another major league, obviously.)

ctorg · 06-28-2006, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carplos

I'm talking about unaffiliated/independent/whatever leagues too.

The only way I've been able to get MLB-potential in lesser leagues is to create the league at whatever MLE you want to set it up, but after creation, change the MLEs to 1.000 and use PCMs to get the quality of players I want. It'll create all future prospects with the MLB-potentials, but the players will be created at the default Single-A MLEs or lowest minors.

I believe the game uses the players in the league, finances, etc to determine "league quality" so the MLEs shouldn't matter. It's not perfect, but it seems to work well enough, as long as you have it so players can easily leave the league (otherwise it'll end up becoming another major league, obviously.)

I thought it also used MLEs to determine who the good players are relative to the majors. Man, there's so much confusion about those things!

Anyway, that is what I'll probably end up doing (setting them to 1.000, setting free agency at one year, and setting a year at one day). I would just like more control of things through MLEs. It would allow me to specify the level of play at which players enter the league. As it is, I don't see the point of having MLEs.

Carplos · 06-28-2006, 06:42 PM

I'd advise against setting one year to a day. I tried that and players ended up with, er, lots of years experience after one year. Which isn't a big deal within the same league, but when they go to another league it might screw things up (unless all your leagues have the same settings)

Quote:

It would allow me to specify the level of play at which players enter the league. As it is, I don't see the point of having MLEs.

They allow you to do that, but you have to have at least one minor league below the parent league, otherwise they're created at default Single-A settings.

ctorg · 06-29-2006, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carplos

I'd advise against setting one year to a day. I tried that and players ended up with, er, lots of years experience after one year. Which isn't a big deal within the same league, but when they go to another league it might screw things up (unless all your leagues have the same settings)

They allow you to do that, but you have to have at least one minor league below the parent league, otherwise they're created at default Single-A settings.

From what I understand, though, if you set the MLEs to .800, that will affect the player's potential as well, and that is specifically what I'm getting at. They shouldn't. They should only affect the current level. I should be able to set them at .800, without a lower minor league (unaffiliated minors really shouldn't have lower leagues), and have guys come in at 80% of major league readiness, with major league potentials. To me, that's the point of MLEs.

Bluenoser · 06-29-2006, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctorg

From what I understand, though, if you set the MLEs to .800, that will affect the player's potential as well, and that is specifically what I'm getting at. They shouldn't. They should only affect the current level. I should be able to set them at .800, without a lower minor league (unaffiliated minors really shouldn't have lower leagues), and have guys come in at 80% of major league readiness, with major league potentials. To me, that's the point of MLEs.

Understand your point, but what if you want your UFM's to only develop to that level as well? What if you don't want them to become ML level players?

Just playing devils advocate here.

ctorg · 06-29-2006, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BruceM

Understand your point, but what if you want your UFM's to only develop to that level as well? What if you don't want them to become ML level players?

Just playing devils advocate here.

You can use PCMs for that just fine.

cephasjames · 06-29-2006, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctorg

From what I understand, though, if you set the MLEs to .800, that will affect the player's potential as well, and that is specifically what I'm getting at. They shouldn't. They should only affect the current level. I should be able to set them at .800, without a lower minor league (unaffiliated minors really shouldn't have lower leagues), and have guys come in at 80% of major league readiness, with major league potentials. To me, that's the point of MLEs.

"

I'm with you on everything that you've said. I think that it does work the way you say and that it should work the way you want it to.

Carplos · 06-29-2006, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctorg

From what I understand, though, if you set the MLEs to .800, that will affect the player's potential as well, and that is specifically what I'm getting at. They shouldn't. They should only affect the current level. I should be able to set them at .800, without a lower minor league (unaffiliated minors really shouldn't have lower leagues), and have guys come in at 80% of major league readiness, with major league potentials. To me, that's the point of MLEs.

I agree completely, but at the moment you can't so you have to use workarounds...

I do wish you could have players imported ready for your top league if you had no minors.

spark240 · 06-29-2006, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctorg

...(unaffiliated minors really shouldn't have lower leagues)...

ctorg, I appreciate your comments in this and other threads--it seems you and I share some of the same goals in terms of what we want to be possible and how we want to model it.

But this particular statement is a subjective judgement. You may not want unaffiliated minors to have lower leagues in YOUR world.

IRL, independent minor league teams, even modern ones, HAVE had their own farm teams. (The book "Wild and Outside," which everyone here should read, mentions such an arrangement for a team in the independent Northern League.)

The OOTP game structure should be free enough that folks can effectively model the world they're interested in, with OR without tiers of affiliated teams.

Carplos · 06-29-2006, 06:56 PM

The PCL had feeder/minor leagues as well at times.

spark240 · 06-29-2006, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BruceM

Understand your point, but what if you want your UFM's to only develop to that level as well? What if you don't want them to become ML level players?

Just playing devils advocate here.

I want the freedom to set the terms of BOTH current ability AND talent potential, independently, for all leagues.

Questdog · 06-29-2006, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctorg

From what I understand, though, if you set the MLEs to .800, that will affect the player's potential as well, and that is specifically what I'm getting at. They shouldn't. They should only affect the current level. I should be able to set them at .800, without a lower minor league (unaffiliated minors really shouldn't have lower leagues), and have guys come in at 80% of major league readiness, with major league potentials. To me, that's the point of MLEs.

From the testing, I've done, I can't see that the MLE's do ANYTHING at player creation....

Carplos · 06-29-2006, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Questdog

From the testing, I've done, I can't see that the MLE's do ANYTHING at player creation....

I would really like to know what testing you've done. Even setting the MLEs to .9 will show changes.

Zeyes · 06-29-2006, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carplos

I would really like to know what testing you've done. Even setting the MLEs to .9 will show changes.

Same here...setting up an independent league at the AA-level (default MLEs in the .800 range or so) definitely results in the very best player ratings upon league creation topping out at about 16 or 17 on the 1-20 scale.

In fact, that's probably still too high for a non-affiliated league (as the defaults are obviously geared towards a full system of minors) since every team will have multiple ML-capable players on their roster, which obviously isn't true for the modern indy leagues even though their level of play is supposedly near AA level.

Questdog · 06-29-2006, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carplos

I would really like to know what testing you've done. Even setting the MLEs to .9 will show changes.

I've been trying to set up a free minor league system, since the day this booger was released....

Setting MLE's at .600 and PCM's at 1.000 still created players with actual ratings equivilant to having the MLE's at 1.000...

In fact, I'd say my rookie level league had better players than my major league....

But unitl I figure this out, I don't want to claim to KNOW anything....

Questdog · 06-29-2006, 08:58 PM

Right now, I'm runnig a test setup where I set PCM's equal to MLE's for initial creation, then set the PCM's all way low for all the leagues, except the rookie league that will have a player draft (whose PCM's are set to 1.000).

Hoping this works....

06-27-2006, 01:30 PM	#1
ctorg Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 9,848	How MLEs should work (according to me) This is how they should work, in my opinion, to make the game more flexible, rather than how they do work, which no one seems to have a good handle on. This is my opinion - something I'd like to see implemented - and I'd like to know what others think. MLEs should affect current ability levels of players but not their potentials. PCMs should affect both current and potential levels. In this way, we can create leagues where players are brought in at specific levels of development but can still progress. For instance, let's say I have an independent AA-level league and the MLEs, for simplicity's sake, are all .800. PCMs are all 1.000. Players coming into that league should be at 80% of major league level as far as their current abilities, but their potentials should be major league level. That way, they can get better and have some hope of being signed by major league teams if they do very well for the indy leagues. This would be very consistent with what MLEs actually are. When you look at a minor leaguer's stats and figure the MLE, you are not looking at his potential, but where he stands right now if he had been in the majors. I am trying to create a universe in which minor leagues are not affiliated. Minor leaguers get free agency after one year and can sign on with big league clubs and all at the end of their first year. Currently, I'm not sure the game is able to do this well. Having my proposed setup for MLEs would make this much more manageable. I'd like to see MLEs modified so that this is how they work within the game. It would, in my opinion, make them much more useful by making them something substantively different from PCMs. My only issue now is that, for all I know, this is how they work. But from what I've read around here, it isn't. No one really seems to have a good grasp of them. __________________ My music "When the trees blow back and forth, that's what makes the wind." - Steven Wright Fjord emena pancreas thorax fornicate marmalade morpheme proteolysis smaxa cabana offal srue vitriol grope hallelujah lentils

06-27-2006, 03:13 PM	#2
Questdog Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: In a dark, damp cave where I'm training slugs to run the bases...... Posts: 16,142	I believe that is they way the official explanation believes they work. I haven't done any personal studies to see if in fact that is true or not.

06-27-2006, 06:44 PM	#3
Carplos Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Idaho Posts: 2,884 Infractions: 1/0 (0)	They seem to work this way just fine, unless the parent league's MLEs are set to .800 (or whatever.)

06-29-2006, 06:56 PM	#14
Carplos Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Idaho Posts: 2,884 Infractions: 1/0 (0)	The PCL had feeder/minor leagues as well at times.

06-29-2006, 08:58 PM	#20
Questdog Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: In a dark, damp cave where I'm training slugs to run the bases...... Posts: 16,142	Right now, I'm runnig a test setup where I set PCM's equal to MLE's for initial creation, then set the PCM's all way low for all the leagues, except the rookie league that will have a player draft (whose PCM's are set to 1.000). Hoping this works....